The day before Thanksgiving in 2009 I was invited to assist with the Nutty Putty Cave rescue of John Edward Jones. I ended up being the last person to see him alive, though at the time I arrived he was mostly unconscious. Since that time I have received numerous questions from reporters and curious individuals. Recently there has been an uptick in those requests as a result of some viral videos that have been posted. This is my attempt to provide information and help answer the questions that I am qualified to answer.
The day after the rescue efforts failed I wrote up a detailed account from my perspective of the rescue while it was fresh in my mind. Keep in mind that this is only one perspective from someone who arrived at the scene toward the end of the rescue efforts.
For a more well-rounded perspective I would encourage you to read Lindsay Whitehurst’s two-part Salt Lake Tribune article.
I will provide some commentary below my report with the footnote number indicated in report in parenthesis.
WARNING: This report contains descriptions of John Jone’s condition, passing, and post-mortem condition that could be disturbing to some readers. Out of respect for John and his family, I have tried to keep descriptions as general possible while addressing the challenges we were up against.
Nutty Putty Rescue Report
Written for SAR on November 25, 2009
I received the first call at 9:00 or 10:00 AM from Spencer Christian and Rodney Mulder that there was a rescue underway at Nutty Putty. They asked me if I could assist, but after asking a few questions about what was going on it seemed there were already enough people on site to carry out the rescue. I told Spencer and Rodney that if the rescue went on for a while and people started getting exhausted, and they absolutely needed me, that I would come.
About 5 hours later Spencer called me up and asked me to respond, saying that people were getting tired and they really needed small cavers. So I left work at about 4:00 PM, ran home to grab my caving gear and then headed out to Nutty Putty. I arrived at the site at about 6:00 PM and was put on the next group to go in the cave at about 6:30 PM.
When I arrived to the main passage at the opening of the Birth Canal people were working on the 4 to 1 haul system they had installed. I assisted for about 5 minutes, until it was decided that the system didn’t seem to be working (1) and the people by John Jones (the victim) needed a break. So the cavers that were working with John headed out.
On the way out I spoke with Andy Armstrong. I asked him how John was doing and he said that he was quickly going downhill, that he was in and out of consciousness and had started talking about seeing angels and demons around him.
As soon as they were out, we decided that I would head in first to assess the situation and see if I had any ideas for removing him, and then Debbie would work with John, since she had already spent some time with him getting to know him and she thought he would feel more comfortable with her.
So I went in first. In the back of the passage, right before you arrive at where John now is, there is an extremely tight crawl perhaps 18 inches wide and about 8 to 10 inches tall that takes a sharp 90 to 120 degree turn that you have to enter feet first. You have to maneuver yourself very carefully and you cannot see where your feet are standing until you pass the restriction. As I wormed my way in I felt my feet touch something soft which ended up being John’s feet. I felt them move and immediately lifted my feet and worked my way horizontally into the crack.
John’s feet were about 6 feet past the constriction and I was able to shift myself to the side of him and down the 4 foot wide fissure. After stabilizing myself by jamming my body into a narrower section of the crack I began speaking to John asking him how he was and introducing myself. There was no response. I shifted my position a little and tapped him on the leg. I could hear him breathing a deep gurgling breath, as though his lungs were filling with fluid. Then his feet shifted as though he were trying to maneuver his legs out of the crack he was jammed in. The kicking looked fairly frantic and after a second he stopped and it looked as though he had drifted into unconsciousness. (2) I continued tapping him on the legs and hip to see if I could get a response, but there was no response.
From there I spent a few minutes studying the passage, the positioning of John, and the rig that was set up, to see how we could get him out from here. It looked very bleak. I wondered if it was even possible to get him beyond this point. We could continue trying the rig, but it looked like he could only be lifted another foot or two in his current position because of where the webbing was anchored around his knees. After a foot or two his feet would hit the ceiling. And then once he reached the ceiling, there was no way to tilt him to a horizontal position. He would have to do it himself, but he was now unconscious. And even if we could get him into a horizontal position, he would then have to maneuver the most difficult sections of the passage he was trapped in. If he were conscious and had his full strength there was a minute chance he could possibly do it. But even if that was the case it looked grim. It was even difficult for me, weighing 125 pounds, to get myself out. At the bend where the restriction was I had to creatively contort my body to slip through. So to get a 210 pound, unconscious person out seemed pretty much impossible. The other option I saw was to use a jack hammer to widen the crack he was and remove a couple of knobs and then widen the tight spot, and then pull him straight out. He would be cut up very badly and probably end up with several broken bones, but if nothing else would work, that seemed like the best option.
Between me climbing out and Debbie taking my place there was a request to take the radio down to John so that his family could say some words to him. I think it was his father, mother, and wife who spoke to him, telling him that they loved him and were praying for him and that his father had given him a blessing. His wife mentioned a feeling of peace, that everything would be OK. She talked to him about 5 to 10 minutes before I told her that we needed to get back to working at getting him out.
At that point I crawled out to let Debbie squeeze past and take a look and assess the situation, but when she got to the tight hole, both legs cramped up and she was unable to make it down. At that point I decided to try using the jack hammer. So we waited for it to arrive and then I carried it down to where John was located. The tool was much heavier than I anticipated and to hold it up while wedging my body in the crack took everything I had. Even then, I couldn’t get a good angle on the rock because of the confined space and limitations in my own mobility and positioning. I only got three tries at a small lip just below Johns foot, but because of my angle the hammer just kept sinking into the sand at the side of the rock lip. I tried shifting my position, but it seemed like everywhere else I moved I couldn’t get a handle on the jack hammer because of it’s length. I only had about 2.5 feet of space between me and the rock that needed drilled and the jack hammer was probably 3 to 4 feet long. And then trying to hold it in such an awkward position wore me out pretty quick.
At that point I requested something smaller, but there didn’t seem to be anything available, and even if there had been I don’t know if a small hammer drill would have done much against the solid limestone walls. So we returned to the Birth Canal to have a quick meeting to decide what to do.
At that point it sounded like the drills were having issues or something like that, and the only option we had for drilling was to use the compressed air hammer. It took probably an hour or so to get hose down so we could use it. While we waited, we decided that perhaps the best bet was to try widening the hole from the top down, working our way towards John instead of away from him. Once the drill arrived Debbie, Max, and I spent about an hour and a half chipping at the passage a couple of feet above the tight spot – about 7 to 9 feet away from John. Areas where the rock was softer came apart fairly easy, but the harder formations took an incredible amount of effort. The main problem was that because space was so limited it was difficult to hit the rock at the right angle, so instead of chipping off the knob you would end up cutting a hole straight into the floor.
After an hour and a half we had only knocked off about a 18” x 4” section of rock on the ceiling and on the ground. And that was at the wider section of the passage. From that point on the cave was even tighter so that if you were laying in the passage and weighed 125 pounds you only had about 3 to 6 inches of space above you. Not very ideal for holding a jack hammer or even being able to choose the most effective angle. To continue the process, or even if we switched to micro-blasters, my estimate was anywhere from 3 to 7 days to get back to where John was. So once again we regrouped to decide what the next plan of action was.
By now it was close to midnight and we were asked to check vitals on John. They sent in a smaller paramedic to see if he could get back to John. In the event he couldn’t he showed me how to use the stethoscope and thermometer and where to check for a pulse. It was 11:30 PM when we left the group by the birth canal and ventured down the passage. It took about 15 minutes to get to John. I went first to check, just in case the paramedic couldn’t fit. I first tried the stethoscope and was only able to get it about 3 inches up and to the right of his naval. I didn’t hear a distinct heart beat, only some ruffling, fluttering sounds that were probably a result of me shaking as I tried to steady myself in an awkward location. I then jammed my hand between the rock and pressed as far up his torso I could go to feel for breathing. I didn’t think I felt anything, but again it was difficult to tell as I was shaking from trying to steady myself. His chest, where it was pressed up against the rock, felt warmer than the rest of his body and was sweaty, but every where else his body temperature was close to the temperature of the rock on the cave walls. From there I removed his shoe and attempted to check his temperature. The thermometer read nothing, which the paramedic said was because the temperature was below the range. As I took his shoes off and moved his feet I noticed that his feet and legs were significantly stiffer than they had been earlier and it was difficult to his leg more than a few inches.
I reported my findings to the paramedic above and then crawled out so that he could see if he could squeeze in. He was able to get dow to the point where he could feel his feet and confirm he had passed away. John Edward Jones was pronounced dead at 11:52, I believe it was.
At that point we decided to return topside for a debrief to discuss what our next plan of action would be. As everyone headed out, the paramedic and I went back in to take pictures of the passage and John’s position.
With John now deceased the effort required to remove his body would be exponentially more challenging. His stiffening body wouldn’t be able to make the bend through the tight spot above his feet, without significant alterations to the passage, which could take days or weeks with a hammer drill, perhaps slightly faster with micro-blasters. Any swelling would make it next to impossible to get him out of the crack he was wedged in until the swelling had reduced. There was no way to connect him to a rope other than by his feet. After a few days, we would need a hazmat suit and masks to work with the body, which would severely overheat any rescuers trying to get him out. With pants and a short sleeve shirt a person is usually dripping with sweat in about 10 to 15 minutes and can work for about 30 to an hour before needing a break. With a hazmat suit and mask you could probably work for 5-10 minutes before needing a break, not to mention the limit to your mobility. The body recovery idea looks very grim. (3)
Commentary
- The 4 to 1 haul didn’t work because there were so many twists and turns in the cave between where there was room for a group to stand and haul and John’s position that the friction, even with pulleys in place was enough to render the haul system ineffective.
- This was the moment he passed away.
- Ultimately it was decided it would be too risky to rescuers to attempt to remove the body, and to this day Nutty Putty Cave is the final resting place of John Jones.
Below you will find a rescue map I put together after the rescue. Jon Jasper, Spencer Christian, Chuck Acklin and I mapped the cave in 2003. We had surveyed the passage where John Jones was trapped. So I used the survey data to generate two different profile views showing where he was trapped and the position he was in. I will also include the photos that I have of the rescue to give you a sense of what the area is like.
Photos from the Rescue
Rescuers at the staging area outside the entrance.
This is me and the legs of the paramedic in the passage leading down to where John is trapped. We are at the between the D5 and D6 survey stations on the illustration above. You can see where we were attempting to jack-hammer the passage. Notice how the passage is just about as tall as the paramedic’s boots.
Me between D7 and D9 just above John. I”m showing how I can touch the ceiling and floor at the same time with my hand.
Looking at the paramedic’s feet from my perspective, between D7 and D9 just above John. In this shot and the previous shot my feet would have been just above John. Again showing how I can touch both ceiling and floor with my hand to show the tightness of the passage.
Map
Here is the complete map of the cave that I drafted up in 2003. John Jones was not trapped in the Birth Canal, but in the Ed’s Push area. He would have traveled by the Birth Canal on his way there. If you are interested you can purchase a high resolution PDF version of the map for personal use here: Cave Maps
Nutty Putty Cave Map © 2004 Brandon Kowallis – You can purchase a high res version of the map by going to “Maps” in the navigation above.
The Nutty Putty Entrance Today
Here is a short video I shot with my phone of the entrance to Nutty Putty today:
Tight Squeezes
To give you a sense of what it is like to squeeze into some of these tight areas in caves. I’ve posed two videos below that were taking during the survey of one of Utah’s desert caves. In the first video Mitch attempts a tight downward squeeze. In the second, I am coming out of a passage I crawled into to see if it went. It dead-ended about 12 feet below me. For many people passages like these are their worst nightmare, for serious cavers it’s no big deal and kind of fun.
Comment about Comments Below
I really appreciate everyone’s kind and encouraging words in the comments below, as well as your questions. Unfortunately, I have a family and a full-time job, and I have to make time for those things plus caving, climbing, and other pursuits, so I don’t have time as of 9/27/24 to respond to long series of questions. If you have a lot of questions read through the existing comments and try to only ask questions that haven’t been asked before and that aren’t speculative or about what happened before I arrived. I will approve any comments you post as long as they are family friendly, but it may take me a week or so to do that.
If I do ever end up putting out additional information such as a video I will email everyone who is on my mailing list. You can sign up for my mailing list here on this page. You could also follow me on YouTube where you would be notified if I post anything.
Thanks again for your kind words!
Thank you for the explanation. John suffered horribly. Also, I cannot believe anyone would enter that passage the way he did?!?!
Yeah. It’s sad. Life pivots on very small hinges.
Thanks for taking the time to do this. I read an occasional sentiment regarding this case, that something doesn’t add up, and I feel that is partly why it is an enduring fascination, even among those who cannot articulate the sense of very little making sense. Besides the gross inconsistencies of almost every fact available to the public in this case, from the position of his arms to the location he was found, I find three things that lead me to wonder: while he was described as having retrograde amnesia, given the subject matter reportedly discussed between John and the attempted rescuers and for the long amount of time such conversations occurred, it would seem the only thing he couldn’t recall was how he got where he was, per Susie Motola; if the general consensus was John had hit his head, how does one do that in such a tight space? His head was reportedly not resting on an object but free within the fissure. Secondly, John was quoted by Ryan Shurtz as saying he couldn’t believe he was on his head, and when Ryan asked John how he came to be on his head, his response was, “Why did you guys put me here?”. In all quoted articles, the sentence immediately following is ‘keep fighting”, which was said by his wife, Emily, meaning we are left without an answer as to what would have been my obvious questions to a man I’m trying to save, “Who put you here, John?”, “What happened?”. It seems he was making perfect sense to Ryan, despite moments of panic. Third, it is reported that John was found without his headlight. Was foul play ever considered? At the very least, if John had no help hitting his head, the official narrative that he believed he was in the birth canal strains credulity as from my observation of the map, it would have been unmistakable, given that boy scouts and numerous others are photographed coming through the famous passage. It seems far more likely the 4 were looking for something depicted on the 1965 geological survey past Ed’s push, and whatever that rumored place or thing might be, this case was used as an unassailable pretext to closing the cave to all, and in such a manner as to prevent any possibility of contradicting the obviously flawed official narrative.
Those are all great questions Joshua, that we will never know the answers to.
One thing I will add is that the scouts who were stuck in previous rescues were trapped in a different section of the cave. There are lots of tight passages in Nutty Putty. With the other rescues I was called out on, the scouts were trapped in the “Scout Eater” passages just past the “Birth Canal” beneath the “Aorta Crawl”. Those passages are horizontal more gradually sloped and the boys were trapped feet first rather than headfirst like John. Most articles say the youth rescued were stuck in the “Birth Canal”, but the “Birth Canal” was one of the easier squeezes. It would have been more accurate to say they were trapped in the “Birth Canal” area, since at that point we hadn’t resurveyed the cave and given the name of the passage most visitors got stuck in, “The Scout Eater”.
Given the nature of the “Ed’s Push” area it would have been improbable that someone would have forced him back there or that he could have knocked his head hard enough to get a concussion. Most of the distorted things John said would have been a result of poor circulation from hanging upside down for a long period of time, which ultimately lead to his demise. Plus I imagine that John would have said something to the rescuers about being forced back in there, once he was certain his captors
But John DID say something to one of his attempted rescuers, to Ryan Shurtz, as per the Salt Lake City Tribune, as I quoted in my earlier message. I, too, think it improbable he was forced “back in there”; the easiest thing would be to let him do all the work, specifically under the delusion he was going in the right direction, which fits a piece of the official narrative. I don’t think it is objectively honest to assume that as long as John was speaking about his faith, singing a hymn, or talking with his family that he was clear, and distorted by his condition when that talk turned to something perhaps darker. Susie Motola stated that John had no memory of how he ended up in his fatal position; John’s reply to Ryan asking him how he ended up on his head is either all a man with no memory of the origin of his predicament could recall or a direct refutation of Motola’s claim. Add to this the conflicting accounts from the 3 others in John’s party as to how he was found, with one being Josh Jones following just behind his brother, urging him onwards to find a place to turn around, and some form of foul play merits consideration, even if in the end it was simply 4 people who were scared because they felt some culpability in John’s death, knowing exactly where they were and what going in Ed’s push potentially meant.
You say the rescues of the scouts led to the naming of a hazardous passage with the new map, one not included on the original 1965 geological survey. However, the new map omitted previously known sections of Ed’s push, and it has been stated this omission was done to discourage exploration of the tight and potentially dangerous passages of this side of the cave. There is no congruency between diagramming a hazardous passage for safety and omitting another under the same concern. It is reported that Brock Clark was stuck in the same area as John, a now “unmapped” portion of Ed’s push, and was upside down as well. But nothing was done after he was successfully freed to further highlight this potentially fatal area, even when it was closed in part due to this incident, and reopened years later with a renewed focus on safety.
What was Chris’s Crawl and the Crystals diagrammed in the original survey, omitted from the new map?
Mad respect to you for going down in that tight squeeze, risking your life. I remember going there once when I was a teenager… had a blast. I don’t think I pushed through the birth canal or any narrow passages but enjoyed exploring & climbing around. Any similar caves that you enjoy/recommend? I like the Lava Tubes in Snow Canyon, just wish they were bigger.
If by the “new” map you are referring to the one I was the cartographer for, we didn’t intentionally omit anything. What you see on that map is everything we surveyed. During the survey I crawled down to where John’s head would have rested, only I was in their feet first rather than head first. I felt around with my legs and could feel that the passage possibly continued on the floor, but it didn’t seem safe to go back there and I wasn’t in the mood to push it, so I marked it as a possible lead.
Also we didn’t name the “Scout Eater” passage to deter people. We named it that because some scouts and other people got stuck there and we thought it was a fitting name for a tight passage that seemed to devour scouts. Anyone who claims we had alternative reasons for naming it such are misled.
As for Chris’s Crawl and Crystals diagrammed in the original survey, I probably left those off because most likely the crystals would have been destroyed and with Ed’s Push and Chris’s Crawl in the same twisted area it was difficult to tell which one was connected to which section. It’s been a long time since I drafted the map, so maybe there was another reason I excluded that, but that reason would not have been deceptive or leading.
Sounds like you are really struggling with this whole rescue. Hopefully my responses above help clarify some things. I wish you the best in finding closure.
Super interesting read, I’m sure the renewed interest in the incident has brought back some intense memories. Thanks for supplying this write-up and shedding some light on the situation.
One thing I find interesting, and it’s good to see a definite answer here in the comments: several videos (including the first one I’d seen on the topic) mention that “nobody had ever been over the ledge beyond the corkscrew”. It seems there’s a lot of general confusion on the number of ledges in Ed’s Push. Some sources claim that Brock and even Dale Greene (RIP) were stuck in the same place as John some 5 and 45 years prior, but from what I can gather it seems they weren’t nearly as far along as John got.
Hi Brandon.
Thanks for your account on the nutty putty tragedy.
To be honest, I have come across this story only lately (I dont live in the US), and it has affected me so much to the point of leaving me very heavy and sad feelings inside.
I have researched a lot about the rescue, read the technical details and the report on the official site of the cavers.
I feel very sorry for what happened to John, he was so young, leaving a wife and two small children, and his family. I also feel sorry that she was bullied for remarring. She’s so young and she basically had to rebuild her life, with two small kids, it isnt easy. People making fun of her are insensitive and they basically dont understand that she’s gonna love him forever, and she will always feel that grief and pain inside.
If I can, I would like to ask you a few technical things that have always made me guess about how the rescue went.
1) even putting claustrophobia aside, how do you guys manage to climb up those small passages during an exploration? I have seen the CBG channel, the action adventure twins and some other footage about caving. It amazes me how cavers already know if they can make it through a very small passage or not. For instance when I saw the action adventure twins video about them having to have their face sideways to crawl, or see how they used their feet to make those small steps to help crawl. How do you do that? really? and how does a caver climb back backward on a sort of, upward going crevice, only using feet and hands? I find it impossible. Even imagining how you guys have helped John during the rescue. There is a diagram where even the rescuer has to sort of, descend a bit downwards to reach John’s feet. how do they do that? And how were they able to move the rope, lift his feet, position themselves to help him? I find it all… impossible. I mean, I could never do that. I imagine that must take lots of physical strength. If the place where the rescuer stood was horizontal I could understand a bit, but in some diagrams they showed how even the rescuer himself was in a downward position too. Can you explain which diagram is the right one?
https://www.reddit.com/r/SweatyPalms/comments/6yjog3/spelunker_john_jones_stuck_upside_down_in_a_cave/#lightbox
or
https://punto.mx/2023/12/20/nutty-putty-la-cueva-que-fue-sellada-con-un-hombre-dentro/
the second one seems a bit more horizontal for the rescuer. the first one is virtually impossible for me to imagine to help someone when I am myself, the rescuer, in a almost vertical position.
2) do you think that he could have been saved, with some other ways, with more time, or maybe with the means we have today in 2024? Or do you think the outcome would have been the same?
I personally think that maybe even today we would have had the same outcome. I remember reading that even his brother was very worried about the position he got stuck, it seems like even Ryan, according to some source, had to fight back tears. Honestly I sort of think that they already knew the seriousness of the accident as soon as they saw the angle he was stuck in.
trying all the possible ways, the geometry was against it. even by breaking his legs, how would he make it through the rest of the passages? Seems virtually impossible. Even when the rescue team lifted his feet, honestly I dont know how he could be taken out, because there was no room to keep on lifting/pulling him. I thought and thought about other ways but I couldnt come up with any other idea. Sometimes I wonder why Ryan said he was gonna get him out, when he himself saw how bad the angle/positioning was.
Even the drilling the rock idea seems not practical because debris would end up downwards.
What do you think Brandon, could it have been different today? some other ways, ideas, or maybe new tools to work the rock around him? Sometimes I think that there was really no other way to save him, even by pulling, because his feet always touched the ceiling, and by breaking his legs he’d still be stuck in the cave because he would not be able to crawl outside.
3) do you think that the administration of the cave is responsible for his death? I think so, somehow. It would have taken just a sign or two stripes in the shape of an X to close the passage of Ed’s push.
As I have seen on the maps, Ed’s Push and the Birth Canal are basically at a sort of crossroads. They look alike, people are easily confused by their entrances. I dont blame John, but the people responsible of the cave for not closing the entrance to Ed’s push. It didnt take much to at least signal the danger, sort of “DANGER! Dead end tunnel” or just to block the entrance with some stripes or whatever.
4) how are the members of the rescue team dealing with the aftermath? are they still affected by it? I was very emotionally impressioned by Susie’s, Ryan and your committment to get him out. I know Ryan was maybe the one who spent the most time with him down the cave, and I wonder how he’s doing today. If he is at peace now or maybe he feels at fault for not being able to save him. Has the accident changed the way you guys approach caves? Like, do you ever think “it could happen to me too”? do you guys keep in touch with each other or with the Jones’ family?
5) Someone wrote that Ryan said that the rope basically was cut by the rock, and that the webbing was intact. Which one is the true version? The press said that the pulley system failed, but someone claims Ryan said that the rope failed. Honestly, even if just the rope failed, everyone seems to agree that the angle of the crevice made it impossible to get him out.
6) another rescuer, Andy, wrote on a cave forum that “not letting the rescuers retrieve the body was an insult to them, and that the decision to let his body there was not unanimous”. I wonder how could they retrieve his dead body, when everybody knows that if it was impossible while he was alive and could help them? I really dont understand what Andy means. Was there some other way to save him that we dont know yet today?
5) Dale Green said something very obscure and upsetting about the cave, something like “some things have happened there that we will never know”. What did he mean?
6) Brock Clark, Chris Morrow and many others have been stuck in that cave, not sure if Ed’s push or some other part. Why were those nasty, narrow parts not closed or at least signalised by the administration? It could have been easily prevented. I think Brock Clark was stuck and the beginning of the rock that pinned John’s feet, right? He could have been saved cause he had his stomach on the rock before the 60′ angle, and he was a teen, so smaller than John.
7) many people on the internet have said that one of John’s mistakes was to exhale while crawling in the narrow passages. But on the adventure twin channels you see that many times they exhale, they take very nasty and claustrophobic crevices, and they always manage to get out, even by crawling with their feet upwards (how do they do that??). So why nobody says a thing about them, and they’re experts, while everybody criticizes John for that mistake? It seems like even many expert cavers do that exhale/strive themselves to make it through the narrow passages even if they dont fit.
8) On the movie the last descent, they show how John basically slips down the downward crevice, but on the internet they say he simply continued thinking it was the birth canal or just wanted to rotate himself once he found a wider opening. which one is the correct hypothesis?
9) seeing the pics you posted about how tight the passage is, basically a hand high or a boot, it’s honestly scary. I couldnt even fit my head down there. It’s just… I dont know how you guys do that. The courage it must take just to go down there, the fear, the lack of oxygen/dark. I would panic, I’m sure. how do you do that?
10) do you think that drilling or jack hammering the place around John’s feet might have helped?
11) do you think that the rescue efforts/strategies could have been managed better? I have read that the pulley system was used only after several hours, about 19 hours until they lifted his feet… couldnt they speed up the process a bit more? The doctor had said that usually in that position people last 8 hours, John resisted for much longer, gathering his strenght and will to live, and yet it didnt work to find a solution. do you think that with time eventually, if you kept using the pulley system, he would have been able to get him out or were there many other stakes? I have read that after they lifted his feet, the rescuers assumed he was some hours away to being unstuck (which seems very optimistic, and clashes with the negative verdicts that Josh, John’s brother, and Ryan had while seeing him in that position right away). I dont understand if he could have been saved with lots of work, or if it was eventually impossible given the angle and the bad positioning of the cave.
I’m sorry for all these questions, I know they are repetive and very detailed but also confused, like I am myself, but I genuinely care about this story so much, it really affected me a lot, and I hope I didnt bother you with all these questions. I have nobody else to ask to (I mean, you were a rescuer, an expert caver, I live in Europe, I dont do extreme sports, and I dont know anyone who takes up extreme sports, so I dont have anyone else to ask to. You, Susie, Ryan are comparable to heroes in my opinion. The most extreme thing in terms of sports that I have experienced is that once I was fishing at night on the rocks and got stung by a stingfish. But being alone in a narrow cave with my claustrophobia cant be compared to how much safer the sea at night looks to me. I have been caught in a current between two huge lines of rocks, which dont let you swim away, and where I live there arent sharks. So everything relatively safer than caving, that’s why I dont understand the passion in this sport, and I would be curious to know about what prompts people to undertake it). By the way, I hope I havent bothered you, and I cant wait to read your replies. I apologize in advance for my grammar mistakes in english, I am a non native speaker. Thank you in advance!
* I mean Scorpionfish, not stingfish. I dont know why the autocorrect came up with that.
Joshua is bordering on conspiratorial reasoning, if you ask me.
My questions are about the attempted pulley system. I can’t seem to find a definitive reason as to why it failed. Some articles and diagrams suggest the rope nearest John was wrapped around a sort of natural rock archway formation, and that’s what failed and injured one of the rescuers. Other sources suggested it was a nearby bolt failing. Some say both happened. This attempt seemed to be ‘working’ as they managed to pull John up some distance before the system failed. If the walls were known to be brittle, why would they trust the rock formation? Why did it fail, and how can future teams know what to do so it doesn’t happen again?
I think I’m most confused about the lack of closure. Once the dust settles for most tragedies, from an airliner failing to a small mountain rescue, you can find information pretty easily that very clearly traces why the failure occurred, what steps led to this situation, and explicit details or knowledge that can be shared to prevent it from ever happening again. But for John it seems like there’s conflicting information everywhere as to why the rescue failed, and it feels like the rescue team parted ways afterwards and never spoke of it again (I imagine completely untrue though). While cave incidents like this are exceptionally rare (it seems), it still doesn’t seem like a waste of time to have a plan available to share to future rescue teams. Then rescuers would know how to spend their very limited time, rather than having to guess with techniques that have never been attempted before in a situation that has never or rarely arisen before. (some articles suggest 4 pulley systems were attempted – wouldn’t it be best to know for certain which one will work beforehand?)
I am not being accusatory or attempting to lay blame or guilt on any of the rescuers. It is clear everyone did their best in an impossible situation and each one of them (and you) are heroes. Perhaps the answer is very easy, and it was just truly too difficult a task to rescue John without unlimited time – time being the biggest enemy here. I admit I don’t like that answer very much.
Wall of text short, it just feels like John’s story ended with little attempt to show that there were lessons learned. It doesn’t feel like rescue teams would be any more prepared for this situation should it happen tomorrow in another cave. Maybe there are plans that exist and they just aren’t too public, and my fears are unfounded.
You nailed it. We could have gotten him out if he had gone in feet first and we had more time. But since he entered head first and because the human body cannot survive upside down for extended periods of time we were severely limited. Also, search and rescue had lengthy debriefs after the incident assessing what worked and what didn’t work and what they needed to do different the next time such an incident occurs. Not sure if there are records of those somewhere.
The limitations of the pulley system were due to the large amount of friction on the rope due to all the turns it had to snake through. The bolt failed not because of brittle rock, the rock was super solid, but because the person who placed the bolt was handed the wrong sized drill bit. But even if the bolt had not popped out the friction would have made it impossible to move John and if they had managed to turn John around once he changed his position the toxicity of his blood at that point, from hanging upside down, would have killed him.
I’ll do my best to answer your questions below:
1. If you are upside down in a tight passage it is extremely difficult to get yourself out and requires a lot of fitness, strength, and technique. John did not have that when it comes to caving skills and strength. If you are in a passage like that feet first you basically jam your body in the space and slowly inch your way upward or downward.
2. Drilling or digging back to where he was would have taken weeks, but it would have been possible. Because he was upside down we only had a few hours before his body would shut down. If he had been upright we would have easily been able to get him out. Given his position and the time constraints we were basically given an impossible task in getting him out.
3. Caves are inherently dangerous and anyone who enters a cave enters at his or her own risk. No one but John is responsible for his death and the choices John made were not out of negligence, but ignorance, due to his lack of experience.
4. I think most rescuers have moved on and are not affected by the incident anymore at this point.
5. Dale died several years ago, so we may never know what he means or if that statement is even true. He never mentioned anything like that to me and I knew him pretty well.
6. No. With rigor mortis and decay it would have been virtually impossible or very hazardous to remove his remains.
7. Exhaling had nothing to do with it. He was trapped upside down and didn’t have the strength to get himself out of his position.
8. The passage where John was trapped inclined 70 degrees down an 8 or so foot slope to a floor and then made an abrupt 90 degree turn into a horizontal passage of unknown length. I don’t know what lie beyond the 90 degree turn and down the horizontal passage and I’m not sure anyone did besides John. But based on the fact he was trying to get out it must have ended or gotten too tight. That could have happened a couple of feet beyond that turn or ten or more feet. I never went in it when I was surveying that part of the cave because it seemed too tight to explore or push.
9. You just learn to let go of that fear and relax.
10. No. There wasn’t enough space for a jackhammer or drill where he was trapped. You would have to start drilling or hammering 20 feet down passage and work your way toward him. It took us about 2 hours to knock of 2 inches of rock. It is very solid rock.
11. In hindsight yes, but there is always something you could do better. Everyone did the best they could knowing what they did at the time. I think even with the lessons learned it would still have been impossible to get him out in the position he was in, unless everything was in place within a hour of him getting stuck when he had strength to help in the rescue efforts, but that would have been virtually impossible since it would have taken more than an hour to get rescuers out to the cave that quickly. Once he was exhausted after struggling for an hour or so, it became waaaaay more challenging to get him out.
Hopefully that answers your questions. Thanks for asking them.
Hi, Brandon. Thank you so much for your insight, compassion, and openness to share. I can’t imagine it’s been easy, given the sensationalism and how easily anything reported about this tragedy can go viral and disrupt the lives of those involved.
I went to go describe the weight of that responsibility as “crushing”, decided that wasn’t appropriate, and then thought of describing it in terms of an Atlus metaphor. “The weight of the world”… Yeah. Nah.
I decided to give up and let whoever reads this derive whatever poetic irony or black comedy they may from my inability to describe how terrifying I find it to be in the position of divulging information about this case to the eternally ruthless, yawning maw of public vitriol online, lol.
Seriously, though—especially considering the harrassment John’s widow has received… I’d be too scared.
I know Ryan Schultz has removed comments or insight he’s made about the rescue attempt, and it wasn’t archived, so that’ll be lost to history. While he has his reasons and I respect that and respect *him* a lot, I’m glad you’re now talking about it.
I was curious about your perspective after reading posts yesterday on a popular social media website where someone, claiming to be an old friend of yours at the time, provided their own recollection of events and what it was like to provide moral support over the phone with you during the rescue. They didn’t name you, but they confirmed, and they seemed credible. (To my knowledge, you have likely fallen out of touch over the years.)
I guess you have to be both brave and pretty damn intelligent/thoughtful to do what you do, though. I greatly value your time and your contributions, so I did buy the .PDF as a means of providing some more substantive thanks, and encourage others to do the same. You’re doing the Lord’s work, here.
I find this whole case comforting and terrifying in an unquantifiable dialectic.
Comforting, because what happened to John was an anomaly in terms of caving, and, with foresight, training, and experience, caving isn’t nearly as terrifying as I’d thought. That’s probably not the conclusion most laypeople with casual interest in this case walk away from.
I’m cleithrophobic (fear of being trapped), but not claustrophobic (fear of tight spaces), and after reading everything on this case, I feel like it’d be perfectly safe for me to take a guided, supervised, well-planned tour of a beginner cave. I’m a beginner geocacher, and I might even go in a cache in a cave, if it were safe.
It’s also terrifying, because, besides the obvious, I think what happened to John could have happened to any of us laypeople without the benefit of hindsight: Exploring a beginner-friendly cave for the sake of nostalgia while on a family trip, and making an inexperienced explorer’s mistake after very much, quite literally “taking a wrong turn”.
There are some things we’ll never have answers to, with regard to what John was thinking, or if he really did, as reported by other members of his caving party, mistake Ed’s Push for the Birth Canal, and those answers died with him. In his position, though, I can easily see myself pressing on through Ed’s Push, reassured first by the promise of a wider area up ahead, owing the difficulty in navigability to my size, it having been over a decade since my last time spelunking, experience having only ever assured me of my safety.
My questions are all kind of all over the place, so I’ll ask them in clusters:
1.) If that is indeed what happened (and again, we’ll likely never know), is that an easy mistake to have made—to have gone into Ed’s Push instead of the Birth Canal? What would the “fork” have looked like, between the Birth Canal and the Ed’s Push area? I also assume John didn’t exactly have his map out in front of him.
Even the best 2D map makes it hard to tell, since it doesn’t capture all dimensions, or what the “fork” coming between . I’ve seen reports that the map John would have been given didn’t have the “Ed’s Push” area charted, and that few people knew about it. I assume John would have been given the map that you drafted, and he checked out on all counts as far as having received appropriate safety information in order for him to be granted access to the cave at all.
While I know you can’t verify anything without a time machine, I trust the cave’s cartographer on this subject more than anyone else.
2.) What do you know about the 2004 rescue of then-16 year-old Brock Clark, and were you involved then? From my understanding, he had also been trapped in the Ed’s Push area.
On a related note, if you happen to know, or can speculate (and I recognize that speculation, in your position, is dangerous), was there specific safety protocol in warning explorers about the danger of Ed’s Push, vs. the relatively much safer Birth Canal?
My understanding is also that, in general, cavers of all skill levels didn’t even really go into Ed’s Push. Even properly navigated, it’s too difficult, boring, and nothing in it that isn’t boring would be worth dying for the chance to discover.
3.) What kind of safety measures are in place, when it comes to caves like Nutty Putty, where there are both areas accessible to and safe for beginners, and also much more dangerous, advanced skill level areas? The only one I know of is the famously effective “reaper warning sign”.
4.) If you don’t mind, how has this case, and the reaction to it, affected your life with regard to caving and exploration, if at all? Do you, personally, feel as though this case, particularly the media and Internet sensationalism behind it, has been unfairly stigmatizing of caving and speleology? Have there been a lot of positives in advancing the discussion of caving safety, especially where inexperienced and beginner cavers are concerned?
5.) Do you, or did you, feel any sense of loss over Nutty Putty being closed? Personally, while I 1000% agree with the decision, esp. since it was John’s grave, it is a shame. It seemed like a great cave system and source of public funding. Human nature is to anthropomorphize things, and I kinda feel bad for the cave having such a terrible legacy.
You should have my email from my purchase, so feel free to contact me privately, if you’d rather.
Lastly, I’d like to say something less to you, and more to anyone else who might be reading this, and offer my perspective. I may do so in another comment.
Couldn’t the place where John was located be excavated directly from the surface downwards with construction equipment?
Since english is not my language ,I hope I wrote it correctly and I hope you can answer it because this question is going to eat my brain 🙂
That would definitely be possible, but would probably cost millions of dollars to bore a hole wide enough for a person and the survey data we collected is probably accurate within 3-5 feet. So there is a possibility the bore could be several feet off and totally miss him. Also it would take months to bore a hole that size as deep as they would need.
Here are my answers to your questions:
1. Yes. It is easy for people to get turned around and confused in caves. Even when you have a map it can be difficult sometimes to make out what is what. When people claim that any part of Nutty Putty is uncharted I think they are making a very naive claim. There have been so many thousands of people in that cave since 1950’s that it would be highly unlikely that anything is uncharted. Maybe just not mapped. But it makes a much better news story if you say “uncharted”.
2. My brother helped with the Brock Clark rescue. That rescue was in the Scout Eater passage. As for warning people about Ed’s Push or any other area, the entire cave is hazardous in different ways, so really the best that cavers can do is warn people that caving is inherently dangerous and it is not a good idea to visit a cave unless you are going with an experienced caver. The problem there is that a lot of people who went to Nutty Putty frequently considered themselves “experienced”. When we surveyed Ed’s Push it just wasn’t significant or promising enough to warrant pushing ourselves to go any further.
3. The only safety measures are those that visitors bring themselves, preferably they are going with an experienced caver. I think there was a form they signed before they could get the key that warned them of the risks and encouraged them to go prepared and know what they are getting themselves into, but I highly doubt that many people read and considered those warnings seriously.
4. The Nutty Putty incident had no impact at all on my caving activities. Yes, the news did what it always does and that is sensationalize the story with a couple of facts mingled with speculation and misinformation. I usually expect that, so I’m not really surprised or put off. They need to sell ads so they can stay in business and no one will read new articles that don’t catch their attention. As for advances in conversations around caving safety, I don’t think it had any impact. Those who are going to be safe and ethical cavers will continue to be and those who are going to do whatever they want regardless of what anyone says will continue to do so. I think we just have to accept that no matter how logical we can be in trying to convince others of something that seems reasonable, there will always be those who don’t want to hear it and will vehemently disagree, and there is nothing we can do about that. The best thing cavers can do is to keep cave locations secret.
5. Yes it was a shame. Cavers saw Nutty Putty as a sacrifice cave that was completely destroyed by all the visitors, however it helped to keep people’s attention off other more sensitive and dangerous caves. Plus, it was a fun sporty cave to take beginners and teach them about safe caving practices.
Hi Brandon. Thanks for educating us on the nutty putty cave system. Something that has never been 100% clear to me is whether you have to go through the birth canal to reach Ed’s push, or whether they both had separate entrances?
Thanks in advance.
As a person who has faithfully documented this event to askers on Quora I am grateful that you made this tell-all blog post that I can share there, for those who still need answers, because this essentially answers everything. I also enjoy your cave photography most of all. It is gorgeous and you are incredibly talented. Lastly I am so grateful that you help in rescues when it’s needed, and most of all, that the rescue team has been able to cope over the years with the aftermath of the event. I know the event traumatized a lot of us who only recently heard about it, with all the graphic descriptions of it. I was horrified at the thought that so many kind helping souls would have to suffer long-term for this event.
Keep caving and keep taking your gorgeous pictures, and regards to your beautiful family.
This is going viral again- fair warning. Thank you for this account and leaving a link to the other accounting. I read this story and I was immediately saddened at how normal it all was- meaning a tragic event with no blame or wrongdoing. People always look for someone to be wrong when something bad happens, what could they have done right? Nothing. His situation was completely normal. He felt comfortable and was familiar enough in caving systems, he was with family. I can plainly see how comfort and skill *could* be his only mistake, but not to place blame- But rather to use as a warning. If John was expecting to be in the birth canal, he would have known that it let’s out. “If you just suffer and make it through this tight spot, you will be relieved of it.” Even if he knew it wasn’t the former, thousands of people as they say have been tromping through this cave, his skill in maneuvering allowed him to access a part that most people can not, he wouldn’t have been expecting it to end, so where most people who feel danger or that they are at an impasse may call for help there-he pushed on. Head first, the only way he could at that point. The next paragraph has nothing to do with John’s specific case, but in general.
Personally I think there is a real problem in our society with safety, and that is that we are warned about safety incessantly, everything has a warning, even your coffee being hot. So we are not only dulled by it, but ignore it. Labeling beginner, easy, or the like gives people a false sense of security. We should be afraid, we should be cautious. I don’t think we should be told what is safe and what isn’t at all, that’s not realistic- but I stand by it. I think we’d have a lot more respect for nature and for danger if we didn’t know what to expect.
Hi, thank you so much for posting this! You talked about being a cartographer on a surveying trip into nutty putty cave and stated “During the survey I crawled down to where John’s head would have rested, only I was in their feet first rather than head first. I felt around with my legs and could feel that the passage possibly continued on the floor, but it didn’t seem safe to go back there and I wasn’t in the mood to push it, so I marked it as a possible lead.” This just made me wonder has the caving community ever thought of using a scope for those type of areas? Something like the scopes people use to see pipe blockages. My thinking is if surveyors used scopes, then they could confirm whether or not a passage goes some where.
First I want to say thank you for the details of this situation as it does shed some understanding of how difficult this rescue was.
So my question relates to cave mapping. Do go-pro cameras get used to facilitate a better visual the the passageway(s). In my perspective, this tool would give the best advantage to understanding the complexities of the cave system, tunnels and passageway. Not only that, but would imagine that it decrease the incidents encountered by cave explorers such as the one with John Jones which was very unfortunate and sad.
Hi Brandon, just have a question about the pulley system. What exactly happened that caused the failure in it? I have heard many different reasons why and I’d like to hear it from someone who was directly involved in the rescue
I don’t think we’ll ever know for certain. I think the most likely scenario is that they used the wrong size of drill bit to set the bolt. Probably off by a millimeter or something like that.
We used Suunto survey instruments and tape measures back then. Today surveyors use Brics which take all the readings we need to build a map. If you are interested in cave survey check out my Minimalist Cave Cartographer course here https://www.brandonkowallis.com/courses/.
Go-pros wouldn’t allow you to collect the measurements you need to build out map.
They both have separate entrances.
Thanks Janine!
Those are good thoughts. Life is fragile and can be taken away in an instant, but that doesn’t mean we should live in fear. I think taking well calculated risks is one of the things that makes life beautiful and worth living.
I believe some cavers have done this. Back in the early 2000’s when we surveyed Nutty Putty, getting access to that kind of technology would have been very expensive. Plus it would be hard to snake something through a hole that is lined with cracks, edges, and rocks that you would have to work your way around. I have taken my cell phone though and plunged my arm back in tight holes and taken pictures that’s worked pretty good.
Hello Brandon, reading through the comments I feel the need to express my deep respect for you finding the resources and taking the time to answer all the questions, how you manage to convey to people your experience of this incredibly tragic event, which I guess must still be alive after all the years. Thank you for sharing your experience.
Hello Brandon,
I learned about this tragedy a few weeks ago. I don’t have much experience with caves, but I have gone caving a couple of times in my youth, with an instructor. It was scary and fascinating, like diving into a parallel or alien world. The Nutty Putty incident really struck a chord with me. I spent days shuddering at the thought of being stuck the way John Jones was stuck. I admit I’m a bit ashamed of being fascinated by such a gruesome and tragic event. It is the stuff of nightmares.
Thank you for sharing
Dear Brandon!
I am writing about Hungary, unfortunately not in very good English.
I hope you understand… 🙂
Hungary is in Europe, very far from the USA. We only recently heard about this shocking case, and we have been under its influence ever since!
Our deepest condolences to John and his family. We sympathize with them even all these years after the tragedy!
Brandon, we thank you for your rescue efforts and your writing!!!
We are grateful for the information!
We wish you and your family a successful and beautiful life!
God bless America!
Thank you very much! <3 <3
Great blog and post. It sounds like there is a lot of misinformation about where Brock Clark got stuck. Most of the information out there is saying he got stuck 15 feet from where John Jones was, but I’m seeing here that your brother was a part of the rescue and that he was actually in the Scout Eater. Correct? How are people so far off here?
Also, curious about where Dave Crowther, Chris Morrow/Hales got stuck?
One more question – did they really blow up the cave? Part of me wonders if they are bluffing to keep people from trying to find another way in. Also, not clear to what extent they went with a demolition if they did. Any insight there?
Thanks Dora!
That is correct. They were in the Scout Eater section. As far as I know John was the first person to be stuck head first in the Ed’s Push section.
No. No one blew up the cave. They just tapped the entrance with cement.
There is a lot of misinformation out there because most individuals and even organizations don’t want to bother checking their sources. They take things at face value and allow the emotion to convince them that what they read must be true.
Hi Brandon,
I’ve read about this and it made me sad but the documentary had the most impact on me, it’s touching and sad at the same time. I definitely cried watching it, one of the many questions I have is why was the cave reopened? It seemed too dangerous to explore so it should have been sealed off before this occurred, I also want to say that I couldn’t have squeezed myself into such a small place without being in a panic. I don’t know how John or those that went in there (such as yourself) were able to do that without panicking, my main question is how are you doing? I know that had to have had an impact on you, I hope you’re doing well
Brandon,
One question only. Since this happened several years back, wouldn’t it be possible to retrieve his remains now since they should be only skeletal remains? Or does the family want him to stay where he passed away at?
So I just watched the movie and I didn’t care for it. I didn’t like all the fields with the man in black and I didn’t like the ending. I thought we would see him till he passed and rescuers/paramedic checking him for pulse and so forth but it ended without him passing on on the movie. No after math of the failed pulley system or anything.
Hello Brandon,
Thank you for taking the time to respond to all the comments and also to provide details on this dramatic event.
If my reading is correct, you said on May 17 that you went down into the same hole where John was stuck but feet first.
But everywhere we read that John was in a place where no one had been.
But actually yes, and it was you. it’s correct ? Can you say more?
As an uninitiated person, I can’t read the map of the cave and I was wondering if the place where John was stuck was on the “main” map, at the end of Ed Push.
Thank you very much and good luck to you.
I’m doing great. Thanks for asking. I think the biggest problem is that many people feel entitled to go into caves, even when they have no training or skill. They don’t think they are that dangerous and brush off experts who tell them otherwise. Most of the time people don’t die when they are caving, and that statistic gives a lot of people overconfidence. It is those people who make demands to the land managers that the managers feel powerless to stand up against. Many land management agencies are also highly under resourced, which makes it difficult to manage anything like that.
I don’t think anyone knows for sure what conditions his remains are in. Since it is not a dry cave (it’s very humid) I think there is a good chance it could be hazardous to remove those. I’ve encountered dead animals in very humid caves that are several years old and it isn’t pretty.
The claim that he was in an unexplored section of the cave was made my news organizations who were looking for a good story. There have been so many thousands of people in Nutty Putty since the 1950s that I would be very surprised if there is any section of Nutty Putty that hasn’t been visited by someone, especially by one of the many expert cavers who have been there. The reality is no one knows and that claim is not well founded. When we were surveying it. I could stick my feet down it and it felt like it may have continued or may have ended. It was hard to tell and I didn’t feel like it was substantial enough to push, so I marked it as a lead, something to look at in the future, for someone who was smaller than I was and could contort their body enough to fit into it.
Thank you for honestly, openly and patiently answering so many questions! It has answered all mine but one. What are the gray areas of the map? Is there another entrance or exit besides the one? And would every visitor or explorer have to find a way to turn around?
Thanks in advance. I really admire your help of knowledge of not just this incident, but of all things cave exploring, to everyone. And especially your efforts to help and rescue others. <3
Hi Brandon,
I just want to say thanks a TON for writing this up and taking your time out of the day to answer everyone’s questions. After becoming extremely interested about the rescue and cave itself, I have been reading all the different articles and watching videos about the rescue and it leaves you with so much questions due to all the inconsistencies between story’s. You cleared up a lot of those on this page, such as Brock being stuck in the scout eater section and not in eds push 14 ft behind where John got caught like all the articles say. I don’t wanna hammer you with questions, but I do have a few I was hoping you could answer.
1. It’s been said he received some sort of medication intravenously through the foot by some, possibly morphine for the pain or maybe a benzo for the panic? Do you know if this is true?
2. You mentioned that you had to go in feet first through that tight constriction that was right before John. How were the rescuers able to assist him (rig the pulley, give him water etc.) being feet first. It sounds like you were able to scooch your legs past him a little so you could get closer. Some of the diagrams I’ve seen of the rescue make it took like you guys went in head first, but reading what you said above that doesn’t sound like the case, was it?
3. Dale Green mentioned in a article that he’s been stuck in the same section as John.
“I got down enough so my feet weren’t quite sticking up the hole, and I realized I couldn’t back out of this. There was no way to push, and I couldn’t get a grip with my feet. I was slanted upside down and started to get a little worried,” says Green. He had to yell for a friend to get him out. “He kept pulling and pulling and finally I just popped out,” says Green. “I never went back to that section again”. Do you know if he was talking about the same crevice John was in?
4. Can you confirm if explosives were used or not in sealing the cave. Some articles I’ve read mention that explosives were used to seal eds push as well as the concrete poured at the entrance. Was this the case or was it just sealed with the concrete up top?
6. When you surveyed the cave in 2004 and were able to get your feet down where John was, were you far enough into that crevice to feel the bottom with your feet where you say it flattened out at the bottom of that 70 degree slant?
7. I was also trying to figure out if John was on his head or not? I know he had asked Ryan who put him on his head or something along those lines but I didn’t think you would have seen his feet if he was that far into it.
Ah crap, sorry man. That’s definitely more questions then I meant to ask you. I just wanted to say too, what all you rescuers did that day is very VERY brave. To put your life on the line like that to help someone you don’t even know is preety awesome of you guys. It can be a pretty dark world but people like you bring a lot of light to it! Thank you, much love.
Good questions. The gray areas are underlying passage. In other words, where one passage overlaps another. There is only one entrance and yes, every visitor would need to figure out how to get back to that one entrance.
I’ll do my best to answer based on what I know:
1. I don’t know about this one. I had to remove his shoe to try and determine if he was dead, so if they didn’t administer some sort of medication it wouldn’t have been through the foot.
2. Everyone besides John went in feet first. In the area where John was stuck it was just big enough to fit two people. He was upside down and the rescuers were right side up.
3. I’m not sure which section Dale was talking about, but I knew Dale and he was a slim fit guy.So I could see him getting himself out with enormous effort if he had indeed gone down that passage head first. John was much heavier than Dale and not as active and so I could see if that was indeed the location where Dale was stuck, that John would have had a much more difficult time.
4. As far as I know they just filled the entrance with concrete, but I wasn’t there when they actually did it. I don’t remember anyone ever mentioning explosives.
5. Yes. I was standing on the bottom and could bend my knee at a 90 degree angle so that I knew it must have continued at least two feet horizontally at the bottom, but I wasn’t about to put myself at risk to find out, so I called that good enough.
6. John put himself in head first and that is the same position he was in when he died. Ryan would not have put him on his head. The goal of the rescue was to try and get him right side up. At that point he would have been able to get himself out with some assistance.
Hope that answers all your questions.
I hope we didn’t bore you with questions 🙂 Another thing I wonder about is that some people say they will definitely go in there because they are curious about where John is. It was said that too much cement was spilled, can it really be entered after all these years?
I last remember hearing that there were photographs of John’s location where he was stuck. Does it really exist? If so, was it not shared with the permission of his family and out of respect for them?
Hi Brandon,
Thank you so much for taking the time to answer questions. It seems that over the years, a lot of misinformation got mixed in with the actual facts, and it’s good to be able to get answers from someone with first hand knowledge of the facts.
I have some questions, hope they’re not repetitive of things you already answered.
1. I have seen a claim (sorry, can’t remember by whom) that the entrance to the cave John went in head first could not easily be confused with the birth canal entrance, and that the appearance of the cave should have been a giveaway that it was not appropriate for inexperienced cavers. Do you think it would have been easy to mistake Ed’s push for the birth canal? You said John was to your knowledge the first person to get stuck head first in that location, so that would seem to indicate not many people chose to enter that section. I’m very curious how easy of a mistake that was to make, and if something about it’s appearance should have given off a warning sign.
2. The original recollection stated that once John went in head first, he kept pushing forward because he assumed he was in the birth canal and knew there should have been a way out. However at some point he seemed to have realized his error and tried to find a place wide enough to turn himself around. You said that by the area where he was located, there was enough room for two people (just). Do you think there was enough space there for him to turn himself around so he would be able to go back? Did the cave only slope down at the final section and he could have been saved if he didn’t push ahead so far?
3. It was stated that the section of the cave John found himself in was unmapped. However the maps you attached to this post seem to indicate that it was indeed mapped as “Ed’s push”. Did the location where John die appear in the original 2003 map you drew? I tried looking at the drawings you provided in this post, however I’m not familiar with caving maps so it’s a bit difficult to understand how this 2-dimensional drawing related to a 3-dimensional cave.
Thank you very much for your time and effort to answer all of these questions. Appreciate it greatly.
Thank you so much, Brandon.
Thank you for this write-up, for answering all these questions and for being in such a courageous line of work as rescue when called upon.
Re: Ed’s Push
Any idea who “Ed” was? I’m guessing the first person to examine that passage, so he got to have it named after him?
Hello Brandon,
Thank you for sharing this unique experience with everybody
Can you please answer the following two questions?
1. When a rope has multiple friction points as it passes through a tight, twisting cave environment, the cumulative friction can create significant resistance to movement. However, if the rope is strong enough, the main challenge may shift to generating sufficient pulling force to overcome this friction. Given this, why did the rescue team in Nutty Putty Cave spend a significant amount of time installing a pulley system, when a simpler approach using a stronger rope or multiple ropes, combined with a powerful pulling mechanism (e.g. a car or truck), could have been more effective in generating the necessary force to extract John Jones?
2. Attaching the rope to his foot created a lot of resistance and made it difficult to maneuver his body. Securing the rope to his hands or wrists could have opened up more options for moving his body during the extraction effort. So why was John Jones’ foot attached to the rescue rope instead of his hands or wrists during the Nutty Putty Cave rescue attempt?
Thank you !
Hi Brandon,
thank you for your patience answering all the detailed questions. I got really good insights from the rescue procedure!
I got a couple more and sorry if you already answered them:
Could you please elaborate more on the Profile East and North in your illustrations? I am not an expert on cave map readings, but i dont get why John was really stuck? What prevented him from moving on?
From your illustrations it seems that he could turned himself, if not from upside-down to upward position, but at least rotating around his own axis?
Was the spot he was trapped the mentioned 18 inch x 10 inch chamber or did it widen up towards his head?
I wonder why he could not push it further down the “uncharted” area, i dont say this would have been a good idea, but under those circumstances maybe another attempt to find a room which widens up.
Thank you!
Hi Brandon,
thank you for your patience answering all the detailed questions.
I got really good insights from the rescue procedure! I got a couple more and sorry if you already answered them:
Could you please elaborate more on the Profile East and North in your illustrations?
I am not an expert on cave map readings, but i dont get why John was really stuck?
What prevented him from moving on? From your illustrations it seems that he could turned himself, if not from upside-down to upward position, but at least rotating around his own axis?
Was the spot he was trapped the mentioned 18 inch x 10 inch chamber or did it widen up towards his head?
I wonder why he could not push it further down the “uncharted” area, i dont say this would have been a good idea, but under those circumstances maybe another attempt to find a room which widens up.
Thank you!
Thank You so much Brandon for the insight and replies. Your perspective is helping me significantly process this horrific accident. I watched one of the documentary videos the past Sunday night and I am still waking up at 3 a.m. running through anxiety filled scenarios around why this happened so quickly and easily. (Yeah it’s my analytical brain getting hung up in an OCD loop along with some moderate claustrophobia to keep me awake). Where’s that valium when you need it? Again, Thank You. Your replies are helping me process as it seems there was just no viable solution to save John from is own inexperience. One question I seem to dwell on is whether or not there is any kind of warning difficulty standard or “weight height” specification posted on a cave entrance, and/or the maps? (Although I acknowledge selecting the wrong cave would have negated any difficulty or size specification on a map). Clearly John was too large for this cave. It is my understanding, due to his size, he could not turn around past Ed’s push which led him to keep going forward head first to find a more open area to make the turn. Were you and the other uber brave rescuers able to make the turn and exit the cave head first back through Ed’s push? If yes, I’m guessing this is due to a combination of smaller more fit body composition and of course skill. Thank you for this blog, and for your focus on rescuing folks from these terrible situations.
Anything is possible.
I took pictures of John’s position in the cave using one of search and rescue’s cameras. It was their call which photos were released to the media. Generally pictures of a body are not shared over the news media for various legitimate reasons.
Good questions.
1. It can be challenging for anyone to look at a cave map and associate the actual passage with what is on the map. I would guess that most people who went in Nutty Putty never even used a map. They would have gone off of what other’s told them, which may or may not have been accurate. So I can see where confusion would arise.
2. Yes. there was enough space to turn around, but it would require enormous upper body strength and flexibility to do that, which John (and most people for that matter) didn’t have and so he was dependent on others finding a way to help him compensate for that, which given the nature of the cave and his position was pretty much impossible. And yes, it only sloped steeply down in the area he was stuck.
3. Yes it did. But no one really dug into the facts. News is always just looking for a good story and so they will grab onto the most interesting “fact” without bothering to check it. Most of the time legitimate news outlets like Associate Press, Reuters, BBC and NPR are 80-90% accurate, but when they are trying to compete for peoples’ attention as quickly as possible they can’t check everything.
No idea and Dale Green who mapped it the first time round died several years ago.
1. I can only speculate here. You would need several hundred feet of rope to reach from where John was to a vehicle outside the cave which would result in dozens if not hundreds of friction points. If you were then using a vehicle to pull him there would be a significant risk in exerting too much force which could seriously injuring John. There is a fair amount of stretch in a rope and if it recoiled during the process I would imagine he could have gotten forcibly pulled through the cave and torn to pieces in the process.
2. I wasn’t there when they tied the rope to him so I’m not sure what they were up against in making that decision. It could have been that they just couldn’t reach his hands well enough to secure the rope, or maybe his position and the nature of the passage eliminated that as an option, or it could have been that the rope would have been more secure tied to ankles than wrists. Who knows.
The profile view is a side view of the passage. I drew one as though you were looking at it from the west to the east and the other as though you were looking from the south to the north. The illustration was based on memory so it is not exact. Most of the illustrations and videos you see make it look like it would be easy to get him out, but the reality when you are in there is much different and it would differ depending on the person and their abilities. You could have two people stuck in a passage and one wiggles and strong arms their way out without too much problem, while the other because of their physique and abilities remains hopelessly stuck.
18 inches is an average. Passages in caves very even within a few feet. In some places it was 18 in others it was more like 10.
I’m not sure we’ll ever know why he did nor didn’t do the things he did and didn’t do.
There was not. I know of several wild gated caves that have different warnings and those signs are often either shot up or ignored. I’ve run into plenty of people that are woefully underprepared despite any signage or information online about how to safely navigate caves.
I think I probably could have gotten myself out if I were stuck in the same place, but it would not have been easy, and like you said I am much smaller, more fit, and more experienced than John was.
I am so sorry you had to experience this. Thank you for writing it up. The report mentioned John was talking about seeing angels and demons. Can you go into specifics about what you heard?
A dreadful death but also a preventable one. Why on earth would someone squeeze into something like that without knowing where they will end up? Madness.
And putting so many other people at risk. All the rescuers involved were so brave. What an awful situation to have to work in.
Thank god its sealed up now.
Thank you all for your efforts and bravery.
Why resquers don’t try to destroy the cave to save John , explain me briefly because I am unknown about cave exploring
Hey Brandon,
I too must have been hit by this going viral. I hadn’t heard about this before, and a YouTube video showed up on my feed detailing the incident.
First of all, I’d like to say I’m so sorry to John’s family, and I hope that they’ve found peace and closure. Secondly, I’d like to thank you and all of the other rescuers involved as you are all heroes in my book. I am claustrophobic, and can’t imagine imagine what it would take to do what you do.
I have an odd question that I don’t think has been asked:
If you had been stuck in the same position that John was head first, could you have escaped? From everything I’ve read, you are in excellent physical condition, a bit smaller, and have a tremendous amount of experience.
I know you mentioned Dale possibly escaping from not as far in, but I’m just curious if an expert in great shape with a smallr frame could have escaped that predicament.
Thanks again for everything.
Hey Brandon,
Thanks for the write up, that was really informative. I really wonder in this case if there is even any rescue method that was possible to safe John’s life. Hypothetically say all equipments are available within 2 to 3 hours of John being stuck and everybody is fresh and ready. What kind of operation would be possible to get him out as fast as possible before time runs out ?
I was thinking a thick steelwire connected to a heavy truck with a lot of torque to overcome the friction from the twist and turns. This in turn is connected to a anchored/bolted down differential to at the mouth of the birth canal to stabilize and convert the insane tension from the truck. The torque from the truck will turn a geared down winch with steel wire that go all the way to John. This will elimate the time needed to install the pulleys and hopefully have enough torque to overcome the friction to navigate through the twist and turn of the cave.
I can see a few potential problem like the differential mechanism probably didnt exist or strong enough to handle the sudden tension load when the constant friction-snap. Not to mention no anchor that can be made with hand will be strong enough.
Hi Mr. Kowallis,
Firstly, thank you for sharing this story. I just have one question about your map of the area where Mr. Jones was stuck, particularly stations D9, D10, and D11. For D9 it looks like it’s the very tight opening that makes the sharp turn which opens up into the smaller area where John’s feet were. But from Stations D10 to D11, on the Profile View East, it appears to be a narrow but wide rectangular area in which John was stuck at the bottom left part of the room. It looks like once you make the squeeze at D9, you simply fall right into the D10 room straight down to D11. So the area where John was stuck is pretty wide, where more that one person can squeeze in as well?
I only ask because a lot of these YouTube videos (too many) make the passage appear as narrow and wide as a small tube with absolutely no room to move even one arm.
Thank you for your time.
Hi Brandon,
Thank you so much for this blog post, this forum, and your bravery around the whole story. It’s truly astonishing. There’s so much on this page that clarifies and firms up a lot of misinformation that is being carried into a lot of recent viral videos: that Brock Clark was trapped in the same place; that nobody had been to where John was; as well as the general feeling/shape of the area where he was stuck, all of which I think has the unfortunate effect of distorting the realities of the situation.
The biggest takeaway I suppose I have is that I get the feeling very few people who are confounded by what happened, have any experience being in those sorts of environments/cave passages. It just feels unfathomable. Myself included.
I suppose the main questions I have that still confuse me are:
1) When someone is pushing themselves into a tight space like that, especially head first, I feel that for myself I wouldn’t be able to get further than half a body length, before panic about getting stuck or to a point of no rescue/return would set in. What would compel someone in John’s situation to keep pushing and pushing and pushing further into the problem? It feels like there were so many “opportunities” where he’d already gotten stuck or gone beyond the point of comfort, it’s just impossible to believe that he wouldn’t stop and call for help way earlier? My understanding is he was multiple body lengths into extremely tight passages. How does that happen? Is there a lack of oxygen or something in the caves that could account for why someone would start to respond like that even when panicked? Similar to people who try to swim against currents and drown themselves?
2) It seems clear that there were multiple perceptions around what “Nutty Putty” was. Some cavers say it was a beginners cave, while others say there are numerous places that were well beyond the scope of what the average non-caver would consider a “beginner”. There’s hundreds of stories of people getting stuck, in similar places, for hours, and getting themselves out, etc, while some of the YouTube videos of the long and tight Aorta Crawl etc, look well beyond the scope of what someone like myself, with no experience, would consider beginner. To me a beginner cave is a wide open space that you walk around with the occasional bat flying past. Do you think there was a miscommunication around the nuances of how difficult a cave Nutty Putty was? And that some referred to the more open chambers as beginner, which got conflated with the more difficult areas? And what some folks might have meant as “a good cave to TEACH beginners” got mistaken for “anyone can do this” type of thing? It feels like there are numerous places that could/should’ve been marked with “do not go here alone” while other more open spaces could’ve just been for the broader public.
3) In considering the attempts and methods to get John out, a couple questions: a) Given John’s situation it seems a lot of precious time was lost simply getting in and out of the caves and getting help, or working out what to do between each rescue attempt, and that after the first 12 hours or so, his chances of survival diminished rapidly. In this type of situation, would you say there is an urgency in frontloading the initial efforts with the best, harshest, strongest attempts possible, instead of slowly escalating the effort over time? It feels like Josh’s initial attempts to pull him out, followed by the pulley system, were the first and last chances he had to get out, after which the success rate diminished to near zero. Would you say that a higher stakes effort places on those initial attempts might’ve yielded better results? Say immediately starting with the pulleys. Communicating to John that it was now or never as it would get more difficult over time? and b) given the excruciating pain he was in, was medical intervention ever considered? Say he was pumped full of painkillers or adrenaline or something of a numbing/activating nature. Could that not have helped the initial attempts while he was still conscious?
Thanks so much for your time and work in this case and in the caving community. It’s truly one of the most mind blowing and alarming deaths and situations I’ve ever heard of in my whole life that defies so many of my natural instincts about humans. I’m a skydiver, and compared to this, the risk/fear factor seems near zero!
I appreciate your thoughts helping shine light on it all and set the misinformation/records straight.
Best,
Steven
Thank you for the detailed explanation. In the satellite imagery on Google Maps, I can see a distinctive “mound” or “stone piles”, to the 160ft east of the sealed cave entrance, but is this some sort of memorial or map marker related to the accident, or just a natural feature? From the time comparison, it appears to have been created between 2011 and 2013.
I read somewhere that they lifted John 10 feet or so out of the cave and then a pulley broke and he slid back into the hole. Is this true? Would they have been able to get him out if the pulley hadn’t failed? Or is this a false detail.
I’ve read about this before, but never your perspective. Thank you for your hard work trying to save him. I’m sad for you that you were by him when he passed, but maybe on some level he knew you were there too? Idk but I’d rather die with someone than alone.
Take care!
Hello from Brazil, Brandon
Thank you for your testimony
I’m curious to know, what is the story/meaning behind the “Ed’s push” name?
Wow Brandon. What a tough and admirable job you have. Thank you for sharing your story, as only those who were there can really understand the conditions. Even though you described how tight and small the passage is, the pictures really illustrate the near impossible task the rescue team faced.
Hi, thanks for taking the time to write this all up and answer questions. I was curious about the location of some areas of Nutty Putty.
1.) The story is that John was looking for the entrance to the Birth Canal, but instead took the path that led to Ed’s Push (entrances seen in the ‘Nutty Putty Cave Part 4 of 5’ video around 6:20 on YouTube). Once you were in either tunnel entrance how different were they / how easily could you tell them apart? On the map they look quite different.
2.) Was the Birth Canal just that small section that led to the larger room where you could access the entrance to the longer Aorta Crawl?
3.) How was the Scout Eater area accessed? It looks like maybe there is an entrance to another tunnel in the room that the Birth Canal led to that runs under the Aorta Crawl that then turns and cuts across it.
4.) Did you have a favorite section of the cave?
Thank you!
Why didnt they tried to removed his pants and oiled up the leg so it become slippery to get out🤔
I live in Ogden and this story still haunts me. Every time I think I want to read about it again, I end up crying and regretting it. Thank you for trying so hard to free him. You’re a true hero
Quite an experience for us readers” going through the cave” with your description. My question is regarding extricating John’s body after his unfortunate demise.
Would it have helped to fill the hole with water so that his body floated up? I don’t mean flooding the cave entirely and jeopardizing the rescuer’s life, just enough water to fill that hole where he was stuck and not a drop more.
You can’t use heavy machinery underground like you can above ground which means that digging back to where he was would take weeks or months that we didn’t have. Even heavy machinery above ground can take a very long time to drill a human sized hole.
I think I could have. The key would be staying calm and quietly exploring with your available limbs any sort of leverage you could manage. Also physical fitness would also be key.
That’s a good question. I don’t think we’ll ever know, but it is fun to think up possibilities in hindsight.
The illustrations are general and don’t depict the varying tightness of the passage. It’s hard to represent in 2D a complex 3D passage. Suffice it to say it was very tight and much more irregular than anyone has been able to represent accurately.
I wonder if by the time of the failed pulley extraction, had it been successful and John had been pulled into a near horizontal position, if he wouldn’t have immediately gone into shock and perished from the sudden drop/change in blood pressure anyway. I strongly suspect this would have been the case. Rescuers likely had considerably much less time to actually accomplish the rescue than realistically feasible.
Brandon, are there markings used in spelunking that could have been used to ward off cavers from the passage John died in?
Brandon, thanks for taking the time to answer so many questions.
How many feet below surface straight vertical do you believe John was?
After seeing a reddit post about thos, I’ve been so fascinated by the whole incident even though I have 0 knowledge about caves and cave exploration. Trying to visualize in my mind exactly what the birth canal and eds push area looks like, it’s one of those things that’s really interesting to me especially on what could’ve been beyond the area he got stuck in (I know you said in another comment that it took a 90° horizontal turn to what was possiblya dead end but still). Something else I can’t get out of my mind is that his skeleton still reminds in the same position and in the same clothing as that very day.
Besides all that, I’m glad to have read it from your perspective, after all these years and to know you’re still safe and well.
Hey Brandon,
First, thank you for volunteering and rescue service. I’ve never gone caving, nor really had the desire to, but I’ve done my share of ‘dangerous’ activities – mostly surfing/motorcycle trackdays/mountain biking. I moved to Utah from Florida in 2009 and remember this story shortly after arriving here. For some reason, it has always stuck with me. When they were filming “The Last Descent,” did they reach out and consult you for details of the rescue? Also, am I correct in stating that you went feet-first towards John’s location, and then when you reached his area, you were able to twist around to be able to feel for a pulse/tap his legs to see if he was still conscious, etc? Hypothetically speaking, If it were possible to safely recover John’s remains and the family wished it so, what do you think the consensus would be to those who cave concerning the reopening of Nutty Putty?
The whole situation was just so unfortunate, at the time this happened I did not have kids, but now I have two young sons. The risk-taking activities no longer seem appropriate. Anyway, thank you again for telling the story and your service.
Hi Brandon!
First I want to thank you for writing a more detailed explanation about this incident from your point of view. I have been doing a lot of research about it and I can’t believe you are the one in the pictures. They are all over the internet when searching for the Nutty Putty Cave incident.
Just like some people here, I have a few questions that I have not been able to find answers online. I believe you might be able to answer them if you want.
1. When you got in the cave, I assume this was after they tried to pulled him over and the pulley system broke and he went back down, correct? I have read many stories saying they pulled him up and it was working. They managed to pull him up enough where they were able to give him some water and even managed to look at his eyes. At the fourth try that’s when the arch that was holding the pulley broke. My question is: if that pulley had not broken, you think they would have been able to get him out? It kind of seems that way from what I have read.
2. When you went in and saw the entire situation, did you ever thought it was unfortunately impossible to take him out? Or you thought it was actually doable and it just needed time and patience? I have read that the unfortunately it was impossible to take him out because of how complicated it was to do. His weight and size made it pretty much impossible.
That is all. Thanks again for your time and patience!
The patient always takes precedence over the wellbeing of the cave. The problem is that the tools don’t exist that could have helped us bore fast enough to get him out before it was too late.
I think I could have, but it would have been difficult.
I don’t think we’ll ever know. With all the bends in the cave I think a cable would have snapped or been useless with all the friction, and with the best tools out there it still would have taken us weeks to dig back to where he was. Most people only survive around 12 hours in that position. He was a trooper and stuck with us for about 27 I think it was.
No. They were only able to lift him a couple of feet and were attempting to get him to turn himself upright when the pulley failed. The paramedic said if they had succeeded in turning him he probably would have died shortly after when all the toxic blood that had pooled in his feet in the hours leading up to that circulated to his head.
Definitely.
I don’t know the origin of that passage name.
1. Maps and the actual cave can look very different and so it can be easy for someone who isn’t good at reading cave maps to get confused.
2. Yes. The birth canal is only about 5 feet long and then it opens up.
3. After you go through the birth canal there is a passage that goes to the left and then along that passage is a tube that branches to the left. That is where the Scout Eater is.
4. The cave was all very fun and sporty. Too back this happened and it was closed.
His legs weren’t stuck. It was his position and his torso that put him in a bad spot.
Cavers often work with land managers to build gates on sensitive caves, but even with gates, vandals find ways to break in. I’ve seen instances where vandals use blowtorches, welders, bolt cutters, explosives, and other means to try and break in. So I think filling the passage with cement is probably the best option . . . if you can get the cement down to the passage you want to fill.
My guess would be 50-100.
The filmmakers for the Last Decent never reached out to me specifically, but I think they may have reached out to the sheriff’s office. They did invite all the rescuers to a pre-screening of the film, which was nice. I thought it was a well done film. They definitely took a lot of creative liberties, but that is what filmmakers do. Based on a true story never means true to what actually happened. They just use the facts as a jumping off point.
Yes, I went in feet first and could reach John’s lower body.
Since the cave is on state trust lands and state trusts are not really land management agencies I don’t think they would ever be open to reopening the cave. State trusts are basically organizations that flip state-trust land to generate revenues for public schools.
1. I think if the pulley hadn’t broken when they flipped John upright he would have died within minutes after being suspended upside down for so long. The toxins from poorly circulating blood would have gone to his brain and ended it for him. That’s what one of the paramedics said would have been most likely.
2. When I got back there I couldn’t see any other options for getting him out besides attempting to jackhammer our way back to him from about 20 feet away. But after working the rock for 2 hours and only getting a few inches off the rock, we couldn’t see any other options.
The cave is hypogenic and was filled with water hundreds of thousands of years ago, but that water has all drained out. So I think it would be impossible to fill the cave or passage with water with all the fractures in the rock that drain that water out.
Had the rescue team gone full bore, all in, with the micro-blasting approach from the get-go, you still don’t think it could have worked though?
Hey, Brandon. First of all, let me say that despite the unfortunate outcome of the rescue, you and all the other rescuers were incredibly brave to risk your lives to save John. I have a couple questions.
1. Are there any known images of the place where John got stuck other than the ones you uploaded? Preferably from before he got stuck in it? I know other people have been in there, or at least claim to have been in there. There’s a five-part series of Youtube videos uploaded by people who explored the cave in 2005. In part 4, they briefly show the very entrance to Ed’s Push, which is just over to the left of the Birth Canal’s entrance, and the video description says they went into Ed’s Push but didn’t record it. I’m sure others went in there too but didn’t get stuck. As a side note, the entrance to Ed’s Push looks safer to enter from the outside than the Birth Canal. I can honestly see why John would go down there.
2. I’ve read that the sealing of the cave’s entrance using the concrete is not irreversible. Is it possible that the cave will ever be reopened? With the exception of Ed’s Push, of course?
Hi Brandon.
Thanks so much for putting this information on and allowing people like me to put to bed the unanswered side of this incident, due to conflicting information out there.
One question from me. The corkscrew is mentioned a lot but not referenced on any/your map. Could you let me know which part of the map it is please? I guess at the D3 to D6 area but aren’t sure?
Thanks.
Hi Brandon, thank you for the effort to share this insight despite the sad memories connected to it, I am sure it wasn’t easy for you to relive those agonizing moments while also being ‘bombarded’ along the way from people(myself included) who wanted to learn more about that horrifying incident. I think it is more than obvious that you (all of the rescuers) outdid yourselves in the effort to rescue John from that perilous situation.
I guess a big ‘why’ will remain. Why that poor fellow put himself in that horrible situation in the first place. Why did he push himself to that extreme end while completely disregarding the dangers, his large posture, he must have known that it already meant trouble.
In any case, may he rest in peace and at least let his death be a warning to all of us, explorers and enthusiasts to never go beyond our limits and always think before acting.
Again, a huge respect to your heroic efforts to rescue John Edward Jones.
Regards from Europe
Hello Brandon, I hope you’re doing well! Thank you for taking the time to explain everything that happened so patiently.
I’m curious what the plan was if the rescue team had managed to get John into a horizontal position. How were they going to manoeuvre him back through the corkscrew in his unconscious or worse condition? I think your assessment of the situation as “bleak” is so apt, sadly. I shudder to think that a few of the rescuers had such close calls themselves trying to help John. As tragic as it was, it could have ended worse. I’m thankful you made it out safely to tell your version of events.
Thanks!
1. I don’t know of any photos of the area, but thousands of people visited Nutty Putty before it was closed so I’m sure that there are photos out there somewhere.
2. It’s only the entrance that was cemented so with the right equipment I’m sure someone could excavate it. It would be a pain in the butt though and require a lot of hard work.
That’s a good question. I’m not sure either.
Thanks Andreas!
I think it was more a matter of we’ll cross that bridge when we get there sort of thing. If we could have turned him upright within an hour or so of him getting stuck I think it would have been pretty easy to help him out.
Going into a cave is completely stupid
Hey Brandon,
Thank you so much for this post and answering question. You cleared up a lot of wrong information. You also confirmed what I had suspected: due to his size that once he got stuck it was pretty much over him as sad as that is. He was too big to be in there, at that position, at that angle to begin with. He had no expert there to help him in that first crucial hour and he likely spent any real strength due to panic and adrenaline that was needed to get himself out with assistance. Not to mention the mitigating factors like blood toxicity building up. It’s unfortunate, but by the time Susie initially got there it was just too late.
His ability to breath would be severely hampered and decreased oxygen to his brain to begin with. The other posters that talked about him asking why said he was put there on his head or suffering amnesia (and even chalking it up to foul play) don’t realize that a lack of oxygen can cause these symptoms and confusion.
You also helped clear up the actual map area he was stuck in. There was all kinds of edited versions of the map that had him in supposed offshoot passages from Ed’s Push further away from the actual area.
It’s good to know the rescue team has moved on from this. It’s traumatizing for those of us that weren’t there reading about it even a decade+ later so I can only imagine the trauma you guys felt for a good while after.
Again, thanks for sharing your perspective on the rescue.
Hey Brandon, I saw a photo of a rescue worker putting in a pulley thing into the cave wall. Do you happen to know where that photo was taken at?
Hello, Brandon. Thank you for providing important information.
I come from China. Recently, some people mentioned this story on Bilibili (similar to YouTube[Chinese Edition]) and famous YouTubers. The story of Nutty Putty Cave is really impressive! It was the first cave-related video I ever watched. Before that, I had no knowledge of caves at all. I later watched more videos about caves, but The Cave still left the most profound impression on me. Many Chinese people are also very interested in The Cave. Similarly, a lot of false information has appeared on Chinese internet platforms. Now, videos related to the Nutty Putty Cave have garnered a large number of views, but the stories of other caves are not as impressive.
Now, Nutty Putty Cave and the Birth Canal seem to have become symbols (or memes). Many people, when they see a dangerous cave in a video, refer to it as Nutty Putty Cave, and narrow, dangerous parts of caves are often called the Birth Canal (which is a misunderstanding—I know you’ve mentioned that the Birth Canal is relatively safe). I find this quite strange, but I sometimes can’t help but think of these memes as well. When I think carefully about it, perhaps the cave isn’t as dangerous as it seems, but Nutty Putty Cave has somehow become synonymous with “extremely dangerous caves.” I guess this story is so famous & impressive because of:
a) The unusual names: “The Big Slide” and “The Birth Canal” are very imaginative names, while the names of other caves are relatively dull. Especially “The Birth Canal,” it’s really hard to imagine how they came up with that name.
b) The critical choices: John had two choices—one that seemed hopeful (The Birth Canal) and one leading to death (Ed’s Push). This makes the story particularly compelling.
c) The arduous rescue: When viewers thought John could be successfully rescued, the pulley system failed. You feel the transition from hope to despair.
d) The unusual posture: John remained in an upside-down position the entire time, which is very uncommon.
==========
I’ve read many comments, and their questions are very good. So, I’d like to ask some different questions:
1) Which parts of Nutty Putty Cave do you think are the most dangerous? (Of course, I know Ed’s Push & The Scout Eater)
2) Which parts of Nutty Putty Cave do you find interesting?
3) Is “The Crack” a dead end?
4) Is “The Big Slide” very steep? Do people really slide down it like a slide?
5) What is the environment like in the farthest part, Vein Alley? Is it dangerous/interesting?
Thank you again for providing this important information. I’m also respect to the rescue teams!
Dear Brandon!
Over the past 15 years, I have investigated this tragedy about as thoroughly as any outsider could, and I have wanted to thank you for the courage, discipline, expertise, and humanity you displayed in the effort to rescue John. I have stared—maybe hundreds of times—at those photos of you demonstrating how tight the space was just above John, and I’ve had to fight back my own rising panic at YOUR peril.
Thank you! Thank you for your detailed explanation of John’s situation and the rescue attempt. (You’ve cleared up a number of questions that have plagued me for years.) Thank you for your heroic effort to rescue John. And thank you for being the sort of person who would accept such risk to yourself on behalf of another.
The world is a better, brighter place because of you.
(And please express my gratitude to the other rescuers as well. I’m in awe of all of you.)
Brandon,
Thank you for taking the time and effort to write up this comprehensive account, as well as having the patience to answer every single question (even addressing the repetitive and speculative ones). You are truly an inspiration.
I believe that the longevity of public interest is due to:
1) the large amount of conflicting information available (typically from ‘official’ sources)
2) the intensely tragic circumstances
3) the lack of closure
It is quite the service you have provided in sharing your first hand account. Your details regarding Brock Clark and your profile view maps were incredibly insightful.
It is rare to see such a high value, high effort Q+A on the internet. The Holy Spirit shines through you. I wish you the best of luck in your future endeavors.
Jason
As a former mountain rescuer and volunteer, I fully understand the difficulty of cave rescue.
If rescue in the mountain has a difficulty of 8 out of 10, rescue in the cave is 10 out of 10.
Thank you for your courage and support
from Iran
Hi! And thanks for al of your information off this case, this case is stuck in my mind and I just can’t stop thinking about it, it’s so unnatural and sad in so many ways.
I need to ask this.
when you first saw John in that position, what was you first feeling ? I saw one picture (don’t know if it is John or not but it it’s in the YouTube videos of John case) in the picture it’s 2 legs with knee pads on sticking out from a hole.. a big chill went through my body, it looked like earth was on its way to swallow that persone whole, so unnatural and beyond sad, I feel so sad in my heart reading about this case.. feel so sad for John and his family
How is it possible for the rescuer to fit 2 in that area and for one guy to not even be able to turn around so he makes the decision so squeezed in that tiny hole?
Last question – do you have to go through birth canal first to reach the entrance to Ed’s push ?
Why Did No One Try To Go Head First With A Pulley Attached them..hold on to his feet & have an automatic pulley pulling instead of human strength? Doing this while a second team is trying to dig up top to give him a opening to get out?
Respect Brandon! Absolutely hopeless action. I was a firefighter for three years and based on the fragments of information I had access to (I live in Europe) I wondered if he could be saved at all. Unfortunately, there are so many myths surrounding this tragedy and it is difficult to separate them from the truth. I wonder about two things, the first regarding the reason John ended up where he was and the second regarding the possibility of his rescue: -1 In your opinion, was the possible cause of his situation that he was moving through this channel (entered it) head first and after reaching its end, he tried to change position (turn around, perhaps realizing that he would not come back out feet first) and in the process: A- accidentally slid (slipped) head down into this hole: B- as above but intentionally lowered himself head down to turn and then slid (lost support for his hands) falling into the hole??? I know that this is speculation but his situation was so bizzare and almost scream: how it was possible??? Was there really an option to slide down there or did he just recklessly and deliberately lower himself down without realizing what he was getting himself into? -2 Did he have a headlamp on, keep it on head (working) and after the first rescuers arrived, was he still conscious and sociable enough to be able to assess whether there was a further part of the channel around him and further down, so that instead of trying to go up, he could try to go further down (leave it) in the hope of some greater space to turn or at least change his position to a horizontal one. I know it sounds downright crazy, but from your description it is clear that he was in a hopeless situation and there was nothing left to lose/worse. He could only possibly gain. Or did they try to use a borescope camera to assess John’s exact position and his surroundings? Would that be possible?? -3: Is it true that John was given water through a tube and oxygen/air was pumped into him??? As I wrote – a hopeless situation, of course I saw this 5-part video on YT of the guys crawling in NP and I suspect that’s what it must have looked like there. Salute from Europe!
Hi Brandon,
I just want to commend you for your bravery. I had to be at least 8 when this happened, but I’m stuck in such a research with this incident.
If I could ask, how was John mentally? I read that he was optimistic, and kind and concerned for everyone that came to help him. As time passed, how was his mental state? Was he ever aware of the state of situation? Do you think at any point and time, he knew that it may have been impossible to get him out alive in enough time?
I watched the movie, and as I know how dramatizations go, they depicted him having panic attacks and going unconscious. Did this actually happen? Or was he trying his best to remain calm.
Hi Brandon The information from your report and in the comments here shed more light then anything I have yet to see out there. I am in the very early stages of writing a book about this incident.
My # 1 question is how were you chosen to go in the that area to be with john?
2-When you were activated to respond what was the initial report given to you?
3-What was the mood up at the command post prior to you heading down into the cave?
4-There are various report they gave john food to eat at some point is that true?
Hi Brandon,
First, I wanted to say thank you for making this and sharing your story. I can’t imagine how difficult it is to think back on, the situation is not only tragic but terrifying to read about.
I noticed you mentioned yourself that there’s been a resurgence of traction about this event due to social medias and stories being spread online, and while I don’t know how you or anyone you may know who was part of the situation feel about it, but there are people online that think it’s distasteful.
Especially because there are some individuals planning to release games and medias based around the story of John’s death, stating that his death has happened to others so it’s not specific to him. Yet they use the same situation; a very narrow and tight crawlspace while the character is head first.
I suppose my question is what your opinion on these types of things would be? Do you find it upsetting or are there no personal feelings on the subject? I understand if this is something you can’t really give an opinion on based on how well you knew him and his family.
I hope all is well! Thank you again, for sharing your story.
I would need to see the photo you are referencing.
Hi Sun,
Here are my responses to your questions:
1. There is risk everywhere throughout the cave. I wouldn’t say one area is more risky than another. People have been injured all over the place in there.
2. The entire cave is geologically interesting being hypogenic in nature. It was formed by warm water rising from beneath the earth mixing with cold water coming from above with just the right conditions.
3. It is.
4. Probably 40ish degrees. Steep enough that if you slip and fall it won’t end well. It would be a very bumpy painful slide.
5. Belly crawls and stooping though mostly tight passage. It’s as dangerous as the person exploring it is prepared for.
Hi Emelie. When I first saw how he was stuck I went straight into problem solving mode. In my mind this was going to be like other rescues where we eventually got the person out, but after several minutes assessing the situation I knew it was dire.
It was very tight and difficult to contort my body back to where he was.
You pass by the birth canal on the way to Ed’s Push, but you don’t go through it.
Good thought. I think doing so would have put the rescuer at risk of serious injury.
Good questions. I would imagine that he thought he would be able to turn around, but then the farther he pushed the more desperate his situation became, but he probably kept pushing forward in the hopes things would open up and he could turn around.
I wasn’t there when he was conscious, but I know they attempted to get him food and water. A tube would have made sense. There would have been no need to pump oxygen, there is plenty of air in the cave.
They didn’t use a borescope camera since we had the map and a couple of us were able to get back to where he was.
I think he realized the desperate state of his situation. I would imagine the mental and cognitive decline that would have happened as he got closer to death was subtle enough and distorted his perceptions enough that he was probably not fully aware of what was going on. I believe he did have moments of panic, but I wasn’t there during any of those. Most people do panic when they get stuck and can’t free themselves after a few seconds or minutes.
1. I am well connected in the caving community and known to be a small competent caver with a lot of experience. I think that is why they reached out to me to help, because very few people could get back to where he was.
2. They told me he was in a very precarious position and in and out of consciousness and needed me to go back and see if I could figure out something the others had not yet figured out to free John.
3. Very serious and concerned.
4. I wasn’t around when he was conscious, but I believe this is true.
I have no control over what other people choose to do, so I really don’t pay much attention to it, or let it bother me. No point in making myself miserable over something I have no control or influence over.
The best way I can describe the photo is the rescue worker was drilling in the pulley into the cave wall and another rescuer was above him when the photo was taken.
In the final photo, showing the paramedic’s leg and feet, are those John’s feet sticking out from the crevice?
I’ll try my best to describe the photo. The rescuer was drilling a hole in the cave wall to put the pulley into it. There was someone above him who took the picture.
No. Those are the paramedics feet from my perspective. Basically the reverse of the image that is two pictures above it.
Hmm. Yeah, I don’t remember that one. If you have a link to it that would help.
Here is the link to the pic https://images.app.goo.gl/fdBrqDKEksPHcuWB9
Do you think it might be possible to sit down with you and have a face to face meeting about this and the dangers of spelunking, what are some other caves to enjoy throughout Utah, etc.?
Hi Brandon,
Thanks for explaining and making the situation so clear, it must take a lot of time and patience to give us all the answers.
The answer you gave to someone who asked what your first feelings on arrival of the scene were (immediatly into reasoning, technical and problemsolving thinking modus) is not a tool many people have. I’m a nurse, and I know this tool is so worthy.
And I think, he didn’t have much chance if any.
Keep up the good life!
Dear Brandon,
I came across this terrible accident a few months ago, and since then, it has been haunting me a little. Since then, I was looking for more information, but it was sometimes contradictory.
So, thank you for all the clear and precise explanations, and for answering all the questions (which I was also wondering about).
A huge respect to your heroic efforts to rescue John Jones : may he rest in peace.
Thank you again for sharing your perspective on the situation, and I wish you a happy life.
Best regards from France.
Looking at the equipment on hand and being a rescuer myself…. I wonder about using the drill with a 12″ 1/2″ Mason drill bit and a cordless drill with Webbing that wraps around the bit….. drill into the cave wall to anchor it and use the torque of the drill and Webbing around shaft of drill bit to lift him. I understand one rescuer was able to get rope around his waist. Maybe 2 pulleys would be all you needed, cut some stabilizing 2×4’s to fit in the space temporarily and go slow. Rope would be positioned and pulled from abdomen side and not from back. Perhaps a girth hitch with Webbing so it didn’t slip around him and come off. Couldn’t be around legs because you would need to manipulate and have him bend at the waist. No legs broken. He slipped in there…. he can come out…..not easy, but what if??? RIP
Hi Brandon!
Since learning about this I found very conflicting marks to where Jones got stuck. Since I’m no cave diver I had a really hard time understanding your drawings and relating them to the map but I think I have figured it out. On the 2003 map Jon is basically sideways in the gray area, correct? I uploaded a image where I highlighted the portion that I think you drew in your “Plan View” and took a guess where Jones is. Maybe you can take a look at it and confirm or correct it: https://postimg.cc/fkfkwxDF
If not maybe you could mark it on the map.
Other than that: Have you ever thought about making a youtube video on the topic? Clarifiying fake news etc and maybe adding safety guidelines for caving etc?
Best regards.
Brandon, thank you for your time. Your answers are very thorough and shed a lot of light on the physical situation. John suffered a very unique death and I can’t help but wonder about his experience. I imagine it was terrifying and painful. Realizing you didn’t see him when he was conscious, how much of the 27 hours do you think he was aware of? It seems a hellish end to me. Did other rescuers share their interactions with him?
I find your ability to compartmentalize and move on to be very impressive. I wonder if there’s a relation to your previous comment about how, during caving, you learned to let go of fear and relax. It sounds like excellent emotional control that comes in handy when faced with severe difficulty.
Thanks again!
Hi Brandon,
Thanks for your detailed account! Like many others I was gripped by this sad story. From all the information I gathered this was the most likely route: https://yourimageshare.com/ib/URkfYOUPaV.png
Is this actually true? I guess this is the deepest section of the cave.
Best of luck!
hi,brandon
1- Before you declared John dead, Dave Shurtz got down to John’s belly level. He told him to pull his stomach in. To wrap a rope around his waist. But John couldn’t react. It took Dave Shurtz 15 minutes to crawl from there. When you first reached him, why did he get down to John’s belly level did not get off?
2- Can you draw the place where John is stuck, as you drew above. From your perspective as you enter there with your head down. In other words, around the place where John’s feet are visible.
3-They say it looked like someone was pulling down from where John was stuck. Is this true?
4- Is the area below where John was stuck closed or is there still an opening? Is John’s body still in the same place or has he fallen down?
5- Did John fall into the deep end because he fainted? Why did John say to the rescuers, “You put me in a narrow place?” Why did John enter the narrower side of the crack?
6-Who were the people who reached John? Rob Stillmar, Suzie Motola, Andy Armstrong. Who were the others? A total of 6 people were able to get into the place where John was stuck. Is this true?
7- John had to stay in the vertical position for at least how many hours before he was rescued. When he moved from the vertical position to the horizontal position, how many hours did he have to be rescued so that he wouldn’t die of blood poisoning?
8- If John had wanted to be saved while he was alive, how would he have been saved? The rocks do not break. So, if John had been alive, how would you have saved him?
9- Would it be useful to save John’s body by wrapping it in a tear-proof plastic bag? The plastic bag would shrink his body. For example, when the baby is born from the mother, the baby’s body is inside the balloon.To prevent the baby’s body from being damaged while being born, the baby is placed in something like a balloon. Does this tactic work?
10-The rescuers were very stressed and nervous. The scary and ominous situation of the cave. Could this help save John?
11-Why did John make such a mistake and it surprises me that he could not be saved in a country like the USA
12-Can you add me on Facebook?
this happened years ago but I hurt for John. It break my heart when he told you that he’s seeing demons and angels. so tragic. so unfortunate. oh wow. I cry for John, and ive never even met him. what possessed him to do that? did he slip down there like that or did he crawl his way downward kike that? my heart hurts for John.
thank you for these details.
Hi Brandon,
Quite a few statements say that John went head first as he initially had to go up and then the route goes down but the map and your drawings show that you seem to drop down into that particular passage first? I’ve seen it mentioned that it was waist height but again, the maps look contrary to this. Could you shed a little light on what Ed’s push was like and how you entered the final passage, please? Thanks, Dave.
You and all the rescuers that were with you are true heros. I live in KY, very close to cave city. this was the incident that has always made me afraid of caves. I never could wrap my head around why anyone would push themselves into such a tight space. I remember hearing about this when I was In high school and we actually took a trip to Mammoth cave here in my state. it was mentioned during the tour. Recently I have been seeing it again in social media…… Let me tell you, it makes me just as sick to my stomach now as it did back then. It gives me anxiety and a sense of panic for this young man.
After seeing it all over social media again, I figured I would do my own digging into what happened. To see the face of the man that went through that tragedy.
I have read every single comment and still have one question for you……I read that he survived some 27+ hours in the position he was in, however rescue attempts were started at 10am ‘ish’ and then around 1130pm-midnight he was pronounced dead. that’s only a total of 12-13 hours. Unless I’m not reading something right. What time is it suspected that John actually got stuck? Did it take another 11-12 hours to realize he was missing and stuck?
If someone want to read more about this tragedy check this site: https://nuttyputtytragedy.blogspot.com
There is a mine of informations about this case.
Thank you for enlightening us on what you think folks who are going into caves should know at the very least and for sharing what had to be an enormous sadness that nothing you could do would get John out.
I think some people who have experienced caving in the big commercial caves such as Carlsbad or Mammoth or Luray may have the misguided impression that “they can do this” in any cave.
I grew up going to the big ones and a few smaller ones but in no fashion would it ever cross my mind to just go exploring in a largely unknown cave.
Thanks for what you do in rescue and sharing your knowledge.
Pretty impossible, but John needed to have been hoisted up from his hips. That way his legs could have been free to back up without hitting the ceiling
Good question. I’m not sure. I know it would have taken several hours from the time he got stuck until SAR had a rescue plan to begin executing. I don’t know what time his group entered the cave and what time he got stuck. I know he was pronounced dead prior to midnight.
It’s difficult to describe. The survey sketch that is included in this article is the best I can do.
The second half of your arrows are correct. The first part is not. He would have gone down the pit/fissure and then back up. Your first arrows are in an upper passage that isn’t connected to the lower section of Ed’s Push. It’s hard to depict in 2-D a 3-D passage.
I’m not sure on either of those questions. I think most of the other rescuers haven’t been to vocal about what happened. Most of us have just sort of moved on and really don’t think of it that often.
Your diagram is accurate. I’ve got too much on my plate right now to do a video.
That photo looks like Ryan Shurtz placing a bolt in the entrance to the passage where John was stuck. He is probably about 15-20 feet away from John’s feet in that picture. Thanks for sharing that.
1. I can’t speak to what happened before I arrived.
2. Unfortunately my schedule is pretty full right now and I don’t really have time to do that.
3. Not sure I understand what they are saying.
4. Yep. Same place. Not sure what lies beyond where he was stuck.
5. I’m not aware of any of that.
6. Not sure.
7. The paramedic told me that most people don’t survive more than 12 hours upside down.
8. Not sure.
9. Not sure.
10. I don’t think so.
11. Everyone makes mistakes. Sometimes those mistakes are fatal.
12. I don’t really use Facebook anymore.
In the photo of Ryan Shurtz that I sent as a link, do you happen to know if the picture was taken from the entrance of Ed’s push or was it near the 70 degree slope that John passed through?
Brandon – Thank you and bless you for your effort, and for taking the time to answer questions in this forum. The event seems to be somewhat traumatic for the general public even just as secondary observers, and your direct addressing of questions is not just worthy of respect but is also comforting. I hope it is for you too.
It is in the entrance to Ed’s Push. Probably 20 feet from where John was stuck.
This story is so difficult. We try to wrap our human minds around the experience, and there feels like there should be more to dissect, more to know, more to glean. On the subject of the event, there really isn’t. The most devastating things are often the most simple. What’s remarkable about John’s story, and your story, is the man itself. He was and in many ways still is a remarkable person. I’m so glad you were there with him, but also so sorry. Thank you for discussing this, and for compassionate bravery. I’ll never forget John – a man I never knew, but who taught me much.
1) What must have happened to John’s corpse by now? It’s been like more than a decade since this incident and I never knew about this until I was randomly checking on some videos on Facebook. So, would there be just the skeleton bones remains?
2) Also, was it possible to take any photos of any views of John through camera in any of the photos that were taken? Or was it difficult?
3) Please provide links if any final images were taken of John through camera through any attempted or exhausted angles.
1. I don’t know. The cave is very humid.
2. I believe I did using SARs camera but I do not have those photos. I don’t think it would be appropriate to share those out of respect for John and his family.
3. Everything I have is on the article.
Hi from Australia
I’ve just one question. At any point before John went over the ledge and downwards into his final resting place, could he have essentially reversed backwards. Did he always have that option until he went down that final area in the cave?
Hi Brandon,
Came here to say you a Hi, This Tragic Case made me very sad. Salute to all the rescuers who gave their full effort but couldn’t save John.
Just wanted to know how you’re doing and how’s your brother Kory who saved Brock Clarke in 2004. How you both are doing and what work Kory does nowaUdays pls let me know it would be interesting to listen. Also, why was Kory not part in the John’s rescue mission ?
I saw his photo somewhere on the internet when he is smiling inside that cave. Here is that Image Link – https://i.imgur.com/BI9ZYfk.jpeg
Brandon. You are a very kind and patient man. Not only to have put your own life at risk for a stranger, but then to relive it as people guess at things they can’t understand. I am amazed by the tightness of these caves. The only thing more amazing is that people actually go into and out of them successfully. Thank you for your clear explanation of these event. Good thought to you and your family. Please stay safe in your adventures.
😢This I know happened long ago but it saddens me finding out about this tragedy from another spoken accident that came across my FB feed. So young not yet began to live. God Bless this Angel., God Bless his family.🙏🏽
Hi Brandon, first of all, I just want to say thank you for sharing this and for your volunteer efforts.
I have a question about the paramedic. Was the paramedic experienced with cave exploration at all? How was their experience crawling through the cave? Did they panic? Were they simply chosen because they were the smallest medical professional? And you guided them through the tunnel to such a grim task. So tragic.
Such a tragedy, thank you to you and all the brave people who tried to rescue this poor man, in the world of madness it’s good to see that there are still good people willing to put themselves in danger for others, others that they don’t even know, God bless you sir.
Hi Brandon,
Thank you so much for this write up and for taking the time to answer questions. I had two things I was interested in:
1) There has been a lot of discussion of inconsistencies in the record of what happened during the rescue, I wonder how much you think that is a product of the rescue taking place in such a small space where only a maximum of one or two people could be close Jones at any given time and there were hundreds of people on site with their only way of knowing what was occurring was word of mouth. A cave rescue in a situation like this is unlike a burning building that can be seen by all, rather the information flow would seem to me at least to be highly open to misapprehension of error filtering through. I wonder what your thoughts are on that?
2) You mentioned the recent virality of the case, not to mention contemporary press coverage and the movie. Did you have any sense during or immediately after the rescue just what a big deal it would be and how many imaginations it would capture even all these years later?
Thanks!
Luke
Hi Brandon,
I am still confused about something. In the photos of the paramedic’s feet, he is wearing brown/black shoes. You make it very clear in a couple of the photos that they are the paramedic’s shoes from your vantage point. Unless you are wearing the same color of shoes, the bottom photo shows your hand, the paramedic’s feet and then another pair of feet sticking out of the crevice. Whose feet are sticking out of the crevice if not the paramedic’s?
Yes. Once he went past the tight squeeze and down the vertical incline head-first he hit a point where return would have been extremely difficult for a small strong person. John’s size made it virtually impossible. His best chances would have been in those first couple of hours before he had exhausted his strength.
Yep that’s definitely my brother in that photo. We are both doing great. Thanks for asking. Kory was at the John Jones rescue he just didn’t get a chance to get back to where John was prior to him dying. You could really only fit one rescuer back there at a time.
The paramedic was not experienced with cave exploration. He was the smallest paramedic they could find and got suckered into it as a result. He stayed remarkably calm despite how scary and uncomfortable it was for him.
1. Most records are going to have inconsistencies when there are several records of the same event and they are based on the biased perspectives of multiple people. Like the story of the blind men and the elephant. https://www.peacecorps.gov/educators-and-students/educators/resources/blind-men-and-elephant/story-blind-men-and-elephant/. Plus you have a lot of people interpreting those and making statements.
2. I just sort of moved on after about a month or so when the loose ends were wrapped up, and didn’t really think much of it after that, so yes, I was pretty surprised when people started reaching out to me years later.
I think what you are seeing are some rocks and a flashlight stuffed back in the crack. That area pinched off a few inches beyond the paramedics far leg.
Hi Brandon, I just have a couple questions.
1)Do you think its possible to retrieve john’s body from that cave? I heard about the incident around 8 years ago. The fact that his body still remains in that ghastly position still doesn’t sit well with me.
2)Seeing your responses it seems as if you barely have any emotional thoughts on the matter. Is it that it has been so long and/or you have seen many similar situations that you don’t feel it’s that big of a deal? or is it that it has been so long that your feelings on the matter has dulled greatly. Or maybe your feelings on the matter wasn’t strong from the start.
3)No one other than the few people(6 people including you) i believe has seen john jones after he got stuck in that cave. Many images claiming to be john jones (his 2 legs) were shared around but none of them were verifiably true. Reading through one of the articles you linked, I heard that a part of his jeans was cut in order to make more space. Do you have any pictures of John Jones in his final resting place? I Have searched far and wide for the existence of such pictures but have never found any.
4)Do you have anymore pictures of Ed’s Push that you can share? maybe the paramedic has some sitting about? Something that can give wider scope than the ones we have access to.
1. Probably not.
2. I do feel the pain and suffering John and his family had to endure. I’m just able to mentally work through traumatic things like that fairly quickly (within a few hours to a week or so), and don’t put much thought to those experiences after I’ve worked through them. It doesn’t do me any good to dwell on something that I have no control over.
3 and 4. All the pictures I have are posted here.
Thank you for your rescue efforts, for posting your original post, and for continuing to answer questions on this matter.
I have one question. Why would it have necessitated breaking his legs to haul him out, as I’ve heard mentioned/alluded to many times? He was able to move his body in ways to get in, so I don’t understand why his body couldn’t have been moved around in ways to extract him.
Thank you.
Brandon there is a page on Facebook that was created due to this event feel free to check it out and post if you feel comfortable it’s all about facts of the case
Hey Brandon, I have another question.
When Spencer and Rodney first called you about the rescue, did you think it would be simple or challenging? When you came to assist and saw John’s position, what did you immediately think?
Thank you
Ty
Cool. Thanks for sharing Andrew.
I don’t remember discussing breaking his legs as an option for getting him out. If someone did it probably would have been in response to trying to figure out how to get him around the tight bend just above where he was stuck, once he became incapacitated. It would be hard to move someone his size through that without enormous force which would potentially cause some broken bones.
Your story is incredible. Thank you for everything you did in that situation to try and rescue John. You are forever a hero ❤️
Thanks for your reply.
I believe I’ve seen reference to breaking his legs in other places online where I’d read about this incident or watched video. It was always in connection with extracting him from where he was wedged, not in connection with subsequent maneuvering him through the passages. See, for example, https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/07/09/nutty-putty-i-really/ (“The team pulled. They pulled again. But John’s feet hit the tunnel’s low ceiling. With his heart struggling to pump blood into his legs, the contact made him scream in pain. The rescuers came to a horrible realization: The angle of the tunnel meant they couldn’t bend John’s body backward without likely breaking his legs..”)
Perhaps this is consistent with what Bobe says above: “Pretty impossible, but John needed to have been hoisted up from his hips. That way his legs could have been free to back up without hitting the ceiling.” So I guess if you’re pulling from the feet, the legs/lower body aren’t free to pivot at the pelvis the way they would have when going in.
In any event, I can’t imagine being in that predicament. I could hardly watch the scenes in Last Descent where he got into the situation, it was so claustrophobia-inducing. (Similarly, having been in tight spaces diving, I shuddered watching the entire documentary on Netflix about Thai soccer team cave rescue……..) Props to you, again, for what you do.
Hi Brandon, I’m really sorry to hear about the incident. I only just now heard about it, and wanted to know or ask a few questions if it’s ok.
1: What were you feeling the second you entered the cave?
2: Did you have any thoughts thinking “could these cave collapse while I’m down here?”
3: Does the incident still make you feel a sense of sadness, not including the other rescuers?
4: The images gave me claustrophobia just looking at them, I can’t imagine what you were feeling deep inside actually being there. If you don’t mind me asking, did you REALLY want to go down, or was it the desperation to save John that drove you to go?
That’s all I have for now. I wish you and John’s family well.
J didn’t mean to make the 4th question to sound personal, I couldn’t figure out how to word it differently 😅
1. Nothing out of the ordinary. I’ve been in hundreds of caves. This was just another day underground to help someone out.
2. Never crossed my mind. Caves are exceptionally stable. If a portion of a cave collapses while a caver it is it, it would have been really bad luck on their part and most likely it was just their time to go and they would have died in some other way that day if they hadn’t died in the collapse. Witness a collapse in a cave is extremely rare.
3. Not really. I don’t think about it much these days, other than when I respond to comments here. It’s a distant memory. I stopped thinking much about it probably a month after the incident occurred.
4. I’d been down the same are John was stuck in before when we mapped it (albeit feet first) and it never really bothered me. I didn’t push beyond where John’s head is, because I was more certain it didn’t go than that it did go and because I wasn’t about to put myself in there head first to see if it did because I knew that would have put me in a very precarious position. But it never really bothered me. I’m pretty comfortable in tight places.
Hi Brandon,
I’m very interested in the part where you say John started to see angels and demons around him.
Is it possible that you could expand on that, please?.
Hi! Thank you so much for your post. This really helped me to process his death. It really affected me and made me feel so much sadness when I came across it.
If I may, can I ask a question. I just don’t understand how nobody else was stuck where he got stuck in all the years that Nutty Putty was open to the public. Is there a reason for this? Did people just avoid that section of the cave because it wasn’t mapped? Thank you.
Wow man you are truly a hero.
I have difficulties to understand how his arms was placed?
How far the feets were above the ground?
HAve you watched the movie?
I wonder how he can have good air, oxygen if he was trapped in a hole?
While his chest was stuck, he cannot takes deep breath, man that’s gotta be atrocious.
You have all our respect, I’m glad there ar epeople lime you in this world.
I don’t speak english so excuse my mistakes.
Unfortunately, all I know is that he was incoherent. No one for sure knows exactly what he meant or why he was saying what he was saying.
I don’t know either. I’m pretty sure of the thousands of people who visited Nutty Putty that a few of them must have ventured back there, but who knows. It’s not too terrible if a person goes in feet first instead of headfirst. It’s not easy, but definitely not deadly. Maybe he was the first person to attempt it headfirst. We’ll never know.
No problem.
1. One is up against his side the other down and above his head.
2. Not sure I understand that question.
3. Yes.
4. The air in caves generally circulates with changes in barometric pressure. The ground is porous and so there is always an abundance of oxygen.
Brandon, It’s so awesome to see you answer all these questions in depth. I learned so much reading through this, never stop being a gem to the community!
Hi Brandon, thanks for being so attentive to peoples questions after such a sudden surge of interest in this case. I’m a blogger from Russia and while editing this story I was amazed by how hard the rescue team worked and tried to do what they can in such an impossible situation. So I wanted to focus a little more on rescuers’ efforts rather than on John’s pain and suffering. I also thoroughly enjoyed the tactful and calm way you write and ask questions about this unfortunate event.
In case you know, could you please tell more about Ryan Shurtz and his injury when the pulley system failed?
I’ve also heard that one of the rescuers got stuck for a while in the same crevice with John while trying to put the rope around him, do you know anything about that?
I wish you the best of luck!
And would be happy to recite your phrase from above about how taking well calculated risks is what makes life worth living, as a conclusion for my video about this incident.
Best,
Anya
Greetings Brandon,
There’s one idea that’s bothering me. What if they chiseled the “ceiling” above John, then put a part of pulley system to get him out of this position, drawing him horizontal, with no legs being obstruction no more? Would that be possible?
Thank you for your time and care in explaining what happened. It’s a very sad story and scary story because one mistake took his life. Or did he make more than one mistake? Obviously it wasn’t a good idea to squeeze head-first, straight down into a tight space. But how do you know when it’s safe to creep forward head-first and when it’s not? Why didn’t he just back up? What would more experienced caver done in his situation? Thank you for your efforts to save his life.
Hey Brandon, I hope all is well.
1) Do you recall ever losing your composure or were you pretty level-headed and focused the whole time?
2) Obviously everyone there wanted nothing more than to rescue Jon, and I can imagine the tensions were extremely high with many frustrating moments – but I’m curious what the sentiment was regarding his positioning. Do you remember anyone saying things such as “what was he thinking?” or “I can’t believe he went head first”. In other words, do you think it was perceived as an innocent ‘freak accident’ or was that area of the cave known well enough that rescuers were perplexed that he would go head first?
3) What do you think it is that separates people that are afraid of tight spaces from those of us who don’t generally feel panic in tight spaces but rather enjoy it? Have you noticed any other corresponding personality traits for either type?
4) Have you done any caving in Arkansas or Missouri?
5) If you could choose 3 words to describe/sum up the Jon Jones incident and its impact on you what would they be?
Awesome photographs, btw! Take care and thanks for responding to us.
Brandon, massive respect for what you and all the other rescuers did on the day, just a shame there was never a realistic chance of a positive outcome in this case.
My love goes out to his family, and despite the tragic outcome in this instance, I have nothing but respect for John and the wonderful person he was.
He made one understandable mistake that anyone could have made, and paid the ultimate price.
Thanks Anya. I wasn’t with Ryan when it happened, but from what I heard and remember, they were pulling on the rope attempting to free John and the force on the rope basically pulled the bolt out of the wall with enough pressure that it hit Ryan in the face knock him temporarily unconscious, and left some pretty significant lacerations across his face.
The problem with that is that there was probably 50-100 feet of limestone above him. It would have taken weeks to drill down to him or years to chisel our way up.
Basically experience and intuition. If something seems sketchy you just have to weigh your options and then decided based on your experience and abilities whether it would be wise to do something like that or not. John didn’t have a lot of experience caving, and probably no experience caving with competent, trained cavers, so he probably didn’t realize to a full extent what he was getting himself into, until it was too late. A more experienced caver who knew their abilities and limits probably would have just walked away from it rather than take the risk.
1) No. That kind of thing doesn’t really shake me up that much. Other rescuers who were not experienced cavers were definitely unnerved by the whole thing.
2) I don’t remember anyone saying anything like that. I think we all saw it as a high consequence innocent mistake.
3) We all have the ability to push through our fears. I don’t think most cavers are immediately comfortable in tight places, it’s just a matter of figuring out a way to deal with those fears, for some people, depending on the gravity of that fear, it can be much more difficult than it might be for others.
4) I haven’t. There are some good caves there though. I have been caving in Tennessee and Alabama though. Too many caves even for a lifetime of caving.
5) I can’t think of three words. It had very little impact on me personally.